# Govenor Scott Walker (R) WI **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743 "2011-02-17T20:56:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/823 "2011-03-02T00:53:05Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If you did anything close to doubling their taxes, well… Canada is right next door. And our top marginal rate is 28%, our capital gains and dividend taxes are lower, and we have no inheritance tax. For the last half of the 20th century we watched as our industry dismantled itself and moved to the U.S. and we lost our best and brightest doctors, scientists, engineers and business leaders to the U.S. where taxes were lower. Raise taxes substantially more on the rich in America, and be prepared for a brain drain and capital flight. It’s a global world now, and the trend everywhere else is to lower taxes on business and individuals alike. The U.S. is bucking the tide. There’s a limit to how far you can go. Really? Double their taxes is far less than the top paid in the US during the 50’s and 60’s, quite arguably the conservative “Golden Age”. Where was the great drain then? The US is being Walmarted to death by short sighted short term planning. We should be retooling for globalization instead of simply shipping out those operations and uplifting economies in those 3rd world countries. We need to pay for elections publicly, give everyone the same dollars and get special interest money out of the equation. Corporations are not citizens and we need to stop treating them as if they are. Especially since they currently reap many of the benefits and pay virtually none of the costs. ---
**Author:** ![superslug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@superslug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/superslug)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/824 "2011-03-02T00:55:54Z")
I find it hilarious that anyone could have such little comprehension of how money moves as to think rich business owners and corporations pay ANY taxes at all. ALL taxes are paid by end users and employees. ---
**Author:** ![Ring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Ring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ring)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/825 "2011-03-02T00:59:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > … > > And the working man has been taking in on the chin for the past 30 years, working harder and seeing little to no benefit from it. The rich can’t take all the pain, but rarely in my life have I seen them take any. But why has the working man been taking it on the chin? Why are we losing our middle class? It’s happening because we’re exporting our high paying jobs, and importing a lower standard of living. It’s not happening because of unions or rich guys, so instead of trying to decide who should get screwed, why not put a stop to the real cause of all this shit. The US is still the largest market in the world, so let’s throw up carefully managed tariffs, suck up the resulting inflation, and tell everyone else to get screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/826 "2011-03-02T02:50:33Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Aw, that’s cute, but it’s a total non-sequitur. Whether you tax the rich more or not, they’re never going to be able to provide more than a tiny fraction of the amount needed to fix the problem. Again, you seem to be trying to draw an either/or kind of balance here. > > Tell you what - I’d support you if you agreed to the same deal Canada did to get its fiscal house in order - we raised taxes and cut spending, but we cut $7 in spending for every dollar in tax we raised. And that’s about the ratio you’re going to need if you’re only going to raise taxes on the rich. Get 80 billion from them, cut 560 billion in government spending, and you’re approaching a balanced budget in a few years. You’re not the one who has to be convinced. Until I see some evidence that Governor Walker (Remember him? Subject of this thread.) is willing to spread the pain around, then I have no problem with the democrats opposing him tooth and nail. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/827 "2011-03-02T03:07:28Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > And where, exactly, was I supposed to have done that? In the \*city \*of Milwaukee, IIRC over 75% of voters went against Walker. You know where I live? The city of Milwaukee. You know what I don’t do? Drive, or even own a car or have a license. You know what I can’t do on the bus? Be “out spreading the word” outside the city of Milwaukee. > > You’re a fucking retard. No I’m not. The group I was involved with owns a bus and traveled all over the state. I didn’t canvass even once in my hometown. But maybe Wisconsin has been so degraded that such a group isn’t possible there, I don’t know. Sheesh, don’t take it so personally. And take that cheese off your head! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/828 "2011-03-02T13:46:26Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Aw, that’s cute, but it’s a total non-sequitur. Whether you tax the rich more or not, they’re never going to be able to provide more than a tiny fraction of the amount needed to fix the problem… > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > …Governor Walker (Remember him? Subject of this thread.)… Correct me if I’m wrong, **Sam Stone** , as I may have glanced over it…but your argument is very much misdirected for the topic of this thread. More specifically, as I understand it, the unions have agreed to all the financial concessions asked of them by Walker. So, _there isn’t any argument_ that unions (in this case) have to kick in their fair share. Rather, it’s Walker’s attempt at eliminating collective bargaining itself that’s the issue. ---
**Author:** ![superslug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@superslug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/superslug)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/829 "2011-03-02T14:36:33Z")
That’s probably because collective bargaining among public employees goes against the public interest. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/830 "2011-03-02T15:08:26Z")
> [@superslug](#): > > That’s probably because collective bargaining among public employees goes against the public interest. I’m imagining a Mission-Impossible conspiracy theory where your head will literally explode if you defend this proposition in any coherent way whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/831 "2011-03-02T15:21:59Z")
I think Wisconsin needs to be provoked to further anger, and needs that anger to be directed at the right targets. I think they are plainly being lied to and jerked around; the wealthy are turning the middle class against itself and turning the debate into “Who among the middle class is going to take cuts?” Let me borrow Shot From Guns’ excellent cites to repeat some information that has gotten buried in this discussion From [here](http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/116955013.html) > [@](#): > > The immediate crisis, according to Walker, is a $137 million shortfall in the current biennial budget… > Let’s ignore for the moment the inconvenient fact for Walker’s “we’re broke” trope that at the same time he was slashing compensation for teachers, he was increasing the deficit by bestowing $117 million in business tax breaks… > > Clearly, stanching “corporate tax leakage” ought to be at the heart of any serious deficit reduction strategy in Wisconsin. Instead, Walker wants to further reduce corporate taxes. The accompanying chart illustrates how a modest temporary 1.5% income surcharge on Wisconsin’s superwealthy could generate over $168 million, easily filling the $137 million budgetary gap that Walker claims can only be met by eliminating collective bargaining. Ninety-nine percent of Wisconsin taxpayers would be unaffected by the surcharge; it would apply only to the richest 1% of Wisconsinites, and only on annual income above $260,000, with the largest amount raised from those making more than $1 million annually. There is no ‘accompanying chart’, but you get the idea. And from [here](http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8EDJYS): > [@](#): > > Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers. **Sam Stone** can talk about cookies until he’s blue in the face, it’ll still be a bunch of crap. The fact is that taxing the rich (temporarily!) can amount to 100% of the solution to Wisconsin’s problems, without causing anybody any pain at all. I say tax them a little more to give the teachers a raise- WI needs better education IMHO. And Scott Walker is a motherfucking liar when he says public employees are ‘not paying their fair share’. Their pensions come out of their compensation package- it is deferred wages. No one is being ripped off. Disseminating this information far and wide across Wisconsin would do a lot to add pressure to the governor to change his douchey ways. Yes, I still stand by my prescription for action for WI, namely getting away from the TV and reading. And getting angry. But I mean that as a doctor, not a provocateur. Forgive me, **Shot From Guns**. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/832 "2011-03-02T16:17:56Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Mmm, hmmm. So far neither one of you has said anything of substance… so I’m as of yet unconvinced. Just because two conservatives don’t have anything substantive to say doesn’t mean they are the same person, it just means they are two conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/833 "2011-03-02T16:21:53Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > My consistent position has been that obstructionism is just fine depending on what you are obstructing. I don’t have a problem with purely obstructing as a tactic. Many of our resident liberal douches here think obstructionism as a tactic is terrible when Republicans do it but OK when Democrats do it. And you don’t think that WHAT is being obstructed has anything to do with why the liberal douches think its terrible when Republicans use obstructionism to stop everything from health care reform to extending tax cuts for 98% of the population unless the other 2% get their tax cuts too but think obstructionism is OK when a governor attempts to eliminate government employee bargaining rights. In other words, how are they any worse than you? Or do you think that the liberal douches don’t realize taht fleeing the state isn’t a form of obstructionism? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/834 "2011-03-02T16:24:37Z")
> [@The\_Bodhi](#): > > Ahh the noob label. Love it… Kiss. I think he meant it in the sense that we are experienceing a recent surge of new right wing posters. On this board, noob does have some significane because there are a lot of rules here that are meant to cull out disruptive posters and maintain orderly debate (or as orderly as it can get on the web). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/835 "2011-03-02T16:30:51Z")
> [@superslug](#): > > Quite a cherrypick. If you want to organize, work in the private sector. > > That goes for cops and firemen too. Why do you believe that government employees should not have collective bargaining rights? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/836 "2011-03-02T16:36:52Z")
> [@The\_Bodhi](#): > > If the police officers joining the protesters were legally ordered to remove the protesters and they they refused and instead joined the protest, they are refusing to obey a lawful order. That will have consequences. > > If they are there and “armed” as part of the protest, the ramifications will be much, much worse for them. Yeah, but that’s STILL not breaking the law. It may be a firing offense but its not something you can put them in jail for. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/837 "2011-03-02T16:38:37Z")
Yet. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/838 "2011-03-02T17:49:13Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The public union workers each take 2 cookies. […] The other 878 complain that that there are only 720 cookies left - not even one each! > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Every dollar that goes to a public union worker is a dollar that doesn’t go to some other priority. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t pay a fair wage to public employees - it means that if you pay them too generously, that pay is going to come at the expense of other things government could do to help the rest of the people. […] Public union employees are not the poor and downtrodden in society. They are typically above the median in pay and benefits, and in some cases WAY above the median At least in the case we’re discussing here, i.e., the state of Wisconsin, your understanding of the situation is 100% wrong. In fact, since I’ve repeatedly cited the relevant statistic, I can only suspect that you’re (a) illiterate, (b) retarded, or (c) deliberately lying to support your position. **Public-sector workers in Wisconsin make, on average, 5% less than their private-sector counterparts.** That means: 1.) For every cookie that someone from the “everybody else” group gets, a government employee in Wisconsin gets 0.95 of one. 2.) Public sector employees in Wisconsin are \*below the median \*in total compensation. Benefits for Wisconsin government employees are generous–because they have, time and again, \*chosen them \*\*over \*_other forms of compensation_. That’s one of the things that happens with collective bargaining: when employees have a choice between making more money now, and having the peace of mind knowing that their kid getting cancer isn’t going to bankrupt them, or another stock market crash isn’t going to mean their retirement will be spent eating cat food out of cans, they generally tend to take the latter. When you look at **all of the factors** –salary/wage, \*and \*benefits, \*and \*hours worked, \*and \*experience, \*and \*education–they make \*measurably less \*than they would if they had the same job with a corporation as their boss instead of the taxpayers. Gonna debate honestly (hah!), or are you going to continue ignoring the facts and trumpeting your lies? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/839 "2011-03-02T18:00:24Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > At least in the case we’re discussing here, i.e., the state of Wisconsin, your understanding of the situation is 100% wrong. In fact, since I’ve repeatedly cited the relevant statistic, I can only suspect that you’re (a) illiterate, (b) retarded, or (c) deliberately lying to support your position. > > **Public-sector workers in Wisconsin make, on average, 5% less than their private-sector counterparts.** > > That means: > > 1.) For every cookie that someone from the “everybody else” group gets, a government employee in Wisconsin gets 0.95 of one. > > 2.) Public sector employees in Wisconsin are \*below the median \*in total compensation. > > Benefits for Wisconsin government employees are generous–because they have, time and again, \*chosen them \*\*over \*_other forms of compensation_. That’s one of the things that happens with collective bargaining: when employees have a choice between making more money now, and having the peace of mind knowing that their kid getting cancer isn’t going to bankrupt them, or another stock market crash isn’t going to mean their retirement will be spent eating cat food out of cans, they generally tend to take the latter. When you look at **all of the factors** –salary/wage, \*and \*benefits, \*and \*hours worked, \*and \*experience, \*and \*education–they make \*measurably less \*than they would if they had the same job with a corporation as their boss instead of the taxpayers. > > Gonna debate honestly (hah!), or are you going to continue ignoring the facts and trumpeting your lies? That can not be correct. i was watching Fox yesterday and they explained how overpaid public workers are. They don’t work and make lots of money. The ones who deserve your sympathy are the poor bankers who are so misunderstood now. The fact is we can balance all state budgets by slashing workers pay and benefits. Once that is accomplished a new tax break to the rich and corporations could be done greatly increasing jobs . ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/840 "2011-03-02T18:06:05Z")
My biggest concern is that we tax the rich at all. Logically I think they should be taxed at 0% so they can create tons of jobs and make us all rich in the process! ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/841 "2011-03-02T18:12:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And you don’t think that WHAT is being obstructed has anything to do with why the liberal douches think its terrible when Republicans use obstructionism to stop everything from health care reform to extending tax cuts for 98% of the population unless the other 2% get their tax cuts too but think obstructionism is OK when a governor attempts to eliminate government employee bargaining rights. > > In other words, how are they any worse than you? Or do you think that the liberal douches don’t realize taht fleeing the state isn’t a form of obstructionism? This is a worn out argument. It’s not either or. Everyone uses the whole palette of strategies. There is a vast, vast difference between using a tactic rarely and using it as your default. Republicans win by doing nothing and even if they undermine the existing administration, because that “proves” that government doesn’t work, so it’s essential that it be made as small as possible to minimize the not work part. I’m not sure why that doesn’t apply to the parts of government they like. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/842 "2011-03-02T18:16:54Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I think Wisconsin needs to be provoked to further anger, and needs that anger to be directed at the right targets. I think they are plainly being lied to and jerked around; the wealthy are turning the middle class against itself and turning the debate into “Who among the middle class is going to take cuts?” > > Let me borrow Shot From Guns’ excellent cites to repeat some information that has gotten buried in this discussion > > From [here](http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/116955013.html) > > There is no ‘accompanying chart’, but you get the idea. > > And from [here](http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8EDJYS): > **Sam Stone** can talk about cookies until he’s blue in the face, it’ll still be a bunch of crap. The fact is that taxing the rich (temporarily!) can amount to 100% of the solution to Wisconsin’s problems, without causing anybody any pain at all. I say tax them a little more to give the teachers a raise- WI needs better education IMHO. > > And Scott Walker is a motherfucking liar when he says public employees are ‘not paying their fair share’. Their pensions come out of their compensation package- it is deferred wages. No one is being ripped off. > > Disseminating this information far and wide across Wisconsin would do a lot to add pressure to the governor to change his douchey ways. Yes, I still stand by my prescription for action for WI, namely getting away from the TV and reading. And getting angry. But I mean that as a doctor, not a provocateur. Forgive me, **Shot From Guns**. Who the fuck is Scott Walker? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743.md?page=43)