# Govenor Scott Walker (R) WI **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743 "2011-02-17T20:56:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 65
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1283 "2011-03-07T15:26:52Z")
Bu, wait a second, how will this affect their crucial role as job-creators? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1284 "2011-03-07T15:32:53Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Actually, I think some variety of that strategy is what’s going to be required to get the various federal and state deficits under control. > > The only way to get the political will required to make the big changes that will be necessary is if people feel that everyone’s sharing in the sacrifice. Liberals aren’t going to tolerate cuts to public employee’s pay and benefits while the rich get tax cuts, and Republicans aren’t going to tolerate big raises in taxes on the rich while the public employees continue to be sheltered from the pain of the recession. Both sides are going to have to give. I’m right there with yah, but I’ve got a question: are wage freezes in an inflationary period considered de-facto “cuts”? I know that a lot of folks would probably say “no”, but that feels to me like a good way to get a 3% across-the-board cut without really angering anyone. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1285 "2011-03-07T15:33:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Bu, wait a second, how will this affect their crucial role as job-creators? You mean that crucial role they’ve been fulfilling so well the last three years? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1286 "2011-03-07T15:44:29Z")
Your sarcasm is unjust. They asked for more tax cuts, we refused to give it to them. So, really, its our fault they haven’t enough money to perform this crucial role. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1287 "2011-03-07T15:47:31Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Liberals aren’t going to tolerate cuts to public employee’s pay and benefits while the rich get tax cuts, and Republicans aren’t going to tolerate big raises in taxes on the rich while the public employees continue to be sheltered from the pain of the recession. Both sides are going to have to give. You know, the public employees already did concede all the compensation issues. The sticking point is the collective bargaining. And Walker already gave the rich tax cuts when he got into office. IMO, this idea that the liberals need to “start” compromising when the conservatives have already asserted that there can be no compromise is grossly disingenuous. You’re suggesting the compromises have to begin when the liberals have already moved to the middle ground and the conservatives are responding by moving more to the right (i.e. threats of layoffs if the libs don’t give in). “Compromise. Now compromise again because the other side isn’t going to budge.” ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1288 "2011-03-07T17:32:11Z")
[20 lies (and counting) told by Gov. Walker](http://filterednews.wordpress.com/2011/03/05/20-lies-and-counting-told-by-gov-walker/) (with cites from conservative sources!) Some highlights: 1.) The bill is to address a budget crisis. 2.) Walker campaigned on the issue of collective bargaining. 6.) States without collective bargaining have better survived the recession. 7.) Public employees are overcompensated. 10.) The alternative to Walker’s solution is layoffs and dropping children from Medicaid. 13.) State employee pensions are funded almost entirely by the state and not the employees themselves. 17.) Schools and local governments have been asking for these changes, for decades. 19.) Walker has respect for public employees. 20.) Protestors did $7.5 million in damage to the capitol building. An interesting interview on obstructionism in American politics and the history of “fillibuster by flight”: [http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/economy/video-greg-wawro-on-filibuster-by-flight-in-wisconsin-and-indiana/7809/](http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/economy/video-greg-wawro-on-filibuster-by-flight-in-wisconsin-and-indiana/7809/) (FYI, I couldn’t get the video to load properly in Chrome, but it did in Firefox) Walker wants to not only slash taxes for the rich, but he wants to effectively raise taxes on the working poor: [http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/117501518.html](http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/117501518.html) > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > What the hell? You need to stop inventing ludicrous straw man arguments. Hey, you’re the one who said, “My solution to that is to stop giving handouts to businesses entirely so they have no incentive to corrupt the political process in the first place.” The only way for the government to stop giving contracts to private-sector businesses is if the government owns all the businesses. Yes, it’s a stupid idea–but that’s what \*you’re \*suggesting. > [@](#): > > I reject that idea because I believe the people who are regulated by government have a right to represent their own interests. Companies and unions aren’t people. > [@](#): > > Oh, actually it does. Your reading comprehension just sucks. The estimate for the 2011-2013 budget deficit in Wisconsin is between 3.6 and 3.9 billion dollars. I’ve already explained and cited that this is a lie. The $3+ billion gap isn’t based on any actual budget–it’s based on the money that was requested. To repeat myself again, the gap in the previous budget between what was requested and what was actually given was \*also \*$3+ billion. Again, to repeat myself, it’s like saying that your household budget has a $1.7 million deficit because your teenager asked for a Bugatti Veyron for Christmas. More repitition: Are you dishonest or stupid? > [@](#): > > If a local issue highlights a larger systemic problem, it’s perfectly acceptable to widen the discussion. You’re really grasping at straws here, and you’re doing so in a particularly nasty way. If you didn’t want to talk about federal policy, all you need to do is say, “Sorry, that’s a different debate.” Instead, you’ve got to stamp your feet like a child and scream “Stupid liar!” Uh, no, it’s not acceptable to widen the discussion to irrelevant things. This is about the Wisconsin budget and Wisconsin public employees. When the Wisconsin facts directly contradict whatever broad-brush lies you’re spewing, to continue spewing them after it’s been patiently explained to you that your right-wing propaganda is demonstraby false in this instance means that you are (a) lying and hoping that no one will notice or (b) a fucking retard. > [@](#): > > Oh for God’s sake. It just gets worse and worse. Now you’ve put words in my mouth, and used those nonexistent words in defense of an idiotic comparison that would still be idiotic even if I said them. But I didn’t. Yes, you did. Don’t blame me because following your ludicrous statements to their logical ends reveals how completely retarded they are. > [@](#): > > Here, let me type really slowly for you so you can follow along: Saying that unions are paid with taxpayer money is a _fact_, just as it’s a fact that government contractors are paid with taxpayer money, and the salaries of politicians are paid for with taxpayer money. Yes, that’s absolutely true. What is not true is that it remains taxpayer money after that point. Public employees are paid with taxpayer money; union dues are not. > [@](#): > > Which means exactly nothing in terms of this debate. I’m fully aware that until the metal overlords show up people will be involved in the creation and consumption of goods. The problem I’m having is figuring out what the hell that has to do with anything if you’re not claiming that value itself is determined by how much labor went into a product. Yes, that’s because you’re retarded, and so are your arguments. You posited that a union should be required to poll its members and distribute its political funds in that exact proportion. I asked if you then believed the same thing about corporations. A union’s political funds come from its members; a corporation’s political funds come from its employees (i.e., the profits are a direct result of the work the employees do). > [@superslug](#): > > 35.2k.. > > 180 (days) \* 7 (hours) = 1260 (hours) = $27.94 per hour How about an actual example from [a real Wisconsin teacher](http://positivelypersistentteach.tumblr.com/post/3512331803/a-letter-to-scott-walker-from-a-wisconsin-teacher): $38,000 / 2,720 hours = $13.97 an hour (Note that 40 hours a week over 52 weeks would be 2,080 hours per year, or about 24% less than the teacher who wrote this letter projects to work this year.) > [@Scarlett67](#): > > Has anyone here discussed the non-union aspects of this bill? Not in this thread, I don’t think. But yeah, it’s a fucking nightmare. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Y’know, after this travesty of a thread I’m gonna have to call my dad tomorrow just to remember what it’s like to talk to a conservative who actually knows how to logically defend his views instead of parroting the latest talking point. So, how sick \*is \*he of having to constantly vote for Democratic candidates? > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I’d suggest future-anticipating projects like high-speed rail Oh, wait, you mean the high-speed rail that Walker killed the second he got into office? Turning away $810 million in federal funding and thousands of potential jobs? And causing other employers to start looking at moving existing jobs out of the state? \*That \*high-speed rail? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1289 "2011-03-07T17:36:12Z")
**Shot from Guns** just won the thread. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1290 "2011-03-07T17:49:14Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > **Shot from Guns** just won the thread. I second that opinion. Well played, SFG. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1291 "2011-03-07T17:52:18Z")
[Walker may have been pwned by the “Koch” call worse than was initially apparent](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/03/wisconsin_dems_demand_probe_of.html): > [@](#): > > Governor Scott Walker’s conduct on the prank call with the David Koch imposter has largely receded from the national media spotlight, but if Wisconsin Democrats have their way, it will be the subject of an investigation by Wisconsin’s enforcer of campaign finance and ethics statutes. > > The Wisconsin Democratic Party is set to file a complaint today to the state Government Accountability Board that alleges Walker repeatedly violated Wisconsin statutes by appearing to request support from Koch in shoring up vulnerable Republicans and by indicating that he would use the threat of layoffs as a political tool… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1292 "2011-03-07T17:52:48Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Hey, you’re the one who said, “My solution to that is to stop giving handouts to businesses entirely so they have no incentive to corrupt the political process in the first place.” The only way for the government to stop giving contracts to private-sector businesses is if the government owns all the businesses. This is only coherent if “handouts to businesses” is interchangeable on a one-to-one basis with “contracts to private-sector businesses.” If you can get **Sam Stone** to agree that the terms are interchangeable, then you are free to nail him with the conclusion that flows from that. Otherwise, you’re straw-manning him unfairly. Look, you’re already objectively right on all of the policy disagreements between the two of you, and he’s already objectively wrong. Twist the knife all you want when you catch him in a legitimately egregious position that compounds his wrongness with additional stupidity and/or callousness. But you must be sure you’re on solid ground. If you give him an opening to successfully dispute a single idiocy that you’ve laid at his doorstep, he will exploit that opening vociferously, and possibly succeed in transferring the focus from the big picture of his overall policy wrongness to the tiny detail of your overstatement/distortion of his position. Just some food for strategic thought. ---
**Author:** ![John\_D\_Adamo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@John\_D\_Adamo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_D_Adamo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1293 "2011-03-07T18:03:56Z")
I have a pretty visible dog in this fight, being an unabashed liberal, however **Sam** makes a perfectly reasonable statement in that both sides will need to share in the sacrifice. Wisconsin unions, for example, are willing to concede the cuts in Walker’s budget. This will need to be done on a national scale. In return, the wealthy will need to contribute their share to strengthening America again through a reduction of the extensive Bush tax cuts. It’s the only real way this will work if one implements political realism, as much as I would be a sucker for a wonderful Democratic union-loving green socialist utopia. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1294 "2011-03-07T18:19:52Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Hey, you’re the one who said, “My solution to that is to stop giving handouts to businesses entirely so they have no incentive to corrupt the political process in the first place.” The only way for the government to stop giving contracts to private-sector businesses is if the government owns all the businesses. This is only coherent if “handouts to businesses” is interchangeable on a one-to-one basis with “contracts to private-sector businesses.” If you can get **Sam Stone** to agree that the terms are interchangeable, then you are free to nail him with the conclusion that flows from that. Otherwise, you’re straw-manning him unfairly. Look, you’re already objectively right on all of the policy disagreements between the two of you, and he’s already objectively wrong. Twist the knife all you want when you catch him in a legitimately egregious position that compounds his wrongness with additional stupidity and/or callousness. But you must be sure you’re on solid ground. If you give him an opening to successfully dispute a single idiocy that you’ve laid at his doorstep, he will exploit that opening vociferously, and possibly succeed in transferring the focus from the big picture of his overall policy wrongness to the tiny detail of your overstatement/distortion of his position. Just some food for strategic thought. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1295 "2011-03-07T19:54:33Z")
> [@John\_D\_Adamo](#): > > I have a pretty visible dog in this fight, being an unabashed liberal, however **Sam** makes a perfectly reasonable statement in that both sides will need to share in the sacrifice. Wisconsin unions, for example, are willing to concede the cuts in Walker’s budget. This will need to be done on a national scale. In return, the wealthy will need to contribute their share to strengthening America again through a reduction of the extensive Bush tax cuts. It’s the only real way this will work if one implements political realism, as much as I would be a sucker for a wonderful Democratic union-loving green socialist utopia. It’s not clear to me that anyone is seriously suggesting that “both sides” DON’T need to share in the sacrifice. Apparently, the _raison d’etre_ for this Pitting of Gov. Walker is that he appears content to place ALL of the burden on the less affluent. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1296 "2011-03-07T21:27:28Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > **Shot from Guns** just won the thread. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > I second that opinion. Well played, SFG. Think that means \*\*Sam Stone \*\*will finally shut his lying and/or retarded mouth? > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > This is only coherent if “handouts to businesses” is interchangeable on a one-to-one basis with “contracts to private-sector businesses.” He’s saying that the “handouts” are the only reason that corporations have to corrupt the political process. I quote again: “My solution to that is to stop giving handouts to businesses entirely so they have no incentive to corrupt the political process in the first place.” He must, therefore, be considering \*all \*government contracts to be “handouts,” because a contract for something the government actually needs would certainly \*still \*be a reason to elect politicians who will be likely to act in your interest. Ergo, to eliminate government contracts, you would have to make all companies that currently have government contracts the property of the government. > [@John\_D\_Adamo](#): > > I have a pretty visible dog in this fight, being an unabashed liberal, however **Sam** makes a perfectly reasonable statement in that both sides will need to share in the sacrifice. Uh, what? \*\*There is no budget crisis. The budget crisis is a lie. \*\*The “sacrifice” is an 8% compensation cut to people who are \*already \*underpaid compared to their private-sector counterparts (with no cut to Governor Walker’s salary or benefits, I note) so that Walker can continue benefitting large companies and the rich at the expense of everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1297 "2011-03-07T21:38:31Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > \He’s saying that the “handouts” are the only reason that corporations have to corrupt the political process. I quote again: “My solution to that is to stop giving handouts to businesses entirely so they have no incentive to corrupt the political process in the first place.” He must, therefore, be considering \*all \*government contracts to be “handouts,” because a contract for something the government actually needs would certainly \*still \*be a reason to elect politicians who will be likely to act in your interest. Ergo, to eliminate government contracts, you would have to make all companies that currently have government contracts the property of the government.\ Whether government contracts are handouts or not, they are certainly not the only reason companies have for corrupting the political process. Distortion of (or differential relief from) regulations of all kinds remain as an important incentive for businesses to spend money to buy influence. It seems that the only prevention would be prohibiting companies from participating in the electoral process entirely. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1298 "2011-03-07T22:25:52Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Think that means \*\*Sam Stone \*\*will finally shut his lying and/or retarded mouth? Har! When pigs fly. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1299 "2011-03-07T22:29:43Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > It seems that the only prevention would be prohibiting companies from participating in the electoral process entirely. Indeed. But \*\*Sam Stone \*\*is trying to contort himself into all sorts of weird positions so that if he sqints hard enough it’s not completely contradictory to block unions but not corporations from making political contributions. I’m just giving him the poke that knocks him back onto his ass. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1300 "2011-03-07T22:52:02Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Indeed. But \*\*Sam Stone \*\*is trying to contort himself into all sorts of weird positions so that if he sqints hard enough it’s not completely contradictory to block unions but not corporations from making political contributions. I’m just giving him the poke that knocks him back onto his ass. Agreed. You’ve done so quite capably. I was merely making a different but related point. Please continue your refutation of \*\*Sam’s \*\*foolishness. ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1301 "2011-03-07T23:40:34Z")
I like this part of the teachers’ letter about hours worked. “If you remove my commute, of course, I still average 68 hours per week, thus far. That means I have put in 1,632 hours of work time this year, which works out to over 80% of what your average full time worker does in a calendar year. If you include my commute, I’m over 90%. If ikeep going at my current pace, I will work 2,720 hours this school year (or 3,120 hours if you include my commute). That means I work 136% to 156% as much as your average hourly worker.” Yes, we all count our commute time as time worked. ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/1302 "2011-03-07T23:48:05Z")
Could someone explain to me the way to not give tax breaks to the extortionist companies that demand them? “just don’t” means they close shop and leave the state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743.md?page=64) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743.md?page=66)