# Government now believes that the hijacker brought down flight 93... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825 "2003-08-08T13:57:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kputt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@kputt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kputt)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/1 "2003-08-08T13:57:01Z")
I’m not sure if this should have been posted here, or in the pit, but this news article I think is a bunch of crock. [http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/GoodMorningAmerica/flight93\_030808.html](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/GoodMorningAmerica/flight93_030808.html) I don’t know about you, but this quote from the article > [@](#): > > \*\*U.S. investigators now believe that a hijacker in the cockpit aboard United Airlines Flight 93 instructed terrorist-pilot Ziad Jarrah to crash the jetliner into a Pennsylvania field because of a passenger uprising in the cabin. \*\* seems a little fishy to me. It doesn’t make any sense 😕 . I can imagine this: Hijacker: Master, there is a passenger uprising in the cabin. What should I do? Master: How the “beep” would I know? Hijacker: Well, should we carry on our plans to crash into the whitehouse? Master: duh, what, can you please repeat the question. Hijacker: Should we carry on our plans to crash into the White House? Master: Nah, if we continue, the passangers might end up killing you and crashing the plane. Hijacker: So, I’m going to die anyway. Master: Well duh, I want to crash it my way. WIMPER WIMPER Hijacker: Master, you are so stupid. CRASH!!! Anyway, it just sounds really fishy to me. Why would the hijacker purposely crash the plane because of a passenger uprising? It doesn’t make any sense to me, does it to you? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/2 "2003-08-08T14:04:57Z")
The terrorists concern wasn’t that the passengers might kill them and crash the plane; It was that the passengers might (and probably would have, assuming the plane wasn’t crashed) subdue the terroists and regain control of the plane. The trick to killing terrorists is to do it _before_ they begin their activities; I assume that most of them expect to die during whatever it is they have planned. ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/3 "2003-08-08T14:06:21Z")
Well, yes, it does. Think of the scenario diffeently Master: What’s wrong? Hijacker: The passengers are going to overpower us. Master: Soon? Hijacker: Very soon. Master: OK, game over, we’re not going to hit our target…but be assured, there’s going to be no happy endings or trials here. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/4 "2003-08-08T14:07:20Z")
Makes perfect sense to me. Indeed, I’ve long believed that’s exactly what happened. Four hijackers in a tiny space, armed only with box cutters, are no match for the dozen or so passengers–now armed with who knows what from the cabin–breaking down the flimsy cockpit door. So what are the hijackers’ options? Ensure that you accomplish nothing by flying towards D.C. until the passengers take back the cabin, or crash the sucker into the ground and kill a couple dozen infidels? Option #2 looks preferable from the hijackers’ p.o.v. ---
**Author:** ![kputt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@kputt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kputt)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/5 "2003-08-08T14:11:05Z")
I didn’t even see that side of the story. But still. However, the passengers, IMO, are still heroes, because they caused the plane to miss it’s target. Of course, if they were able to regain control, who knows what would have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/6 "2003-08-08T14:18:36Z")
Well, yeah, no one’s saying the uprising wasn’t a noble thing. ---
**Author:** ![kputt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@kputt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kputt)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/7 "2003-08-08T14:28:08Z")
**Neurotic** I read that later in the article that they were still considered heroes. But to add a twist to this story, here is another link: [http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-08-07-flight-93\_x.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-08-07-flight-93_x.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\*She declined to discuss specific things she heard on the tape because U.S. prosecutors have asked families not to describe the recording. She said she does remember hearing a hijacker telling Jarrah in Arabic to crash the plane deliberately, as Mueller described, and Jarrah refusing to crash it. > > \*\* and > [@](#): > > \*\*The same cockpit recording was played privately in April 2002 for family members of victims aboard Flight 93, and the FBI also provided them with its best effort at producing an understandable transcript. > > Some family members indicated afterward they were led to believe that passengers used a food cart as a shield and successfully broke into the cockpit. > > “It is totally obvious listening to that flight recorder that they made it into the cockpit,” said Deena Burnett, who lost her husband, Thomas E. Burnett Jr., on Flight 93. > > “You cannot listen to the tape and understand it any other way,” Burnett said Thursday in a telephone interview. > > \*\* also, \*\* > [@](#): > > Burnett also said U.S. authorities, including Assistant U.S. Attorney David Novak, told families explicitly in April 2002 that the recording indicates passengers actually made their way into the cockpit. \*\* So, perhaps the passangers did get into the cockpit and take over the plane. Who knows? They (the family members of the victims) said the pilot even refused to crash the plane. They said it was obvious that the passengers were in the cockpit at the time. So, perhaps the passangers did get into the cockpit and take over the plane. Who knows? They (the family members of the victims) said the pilot even refused to crash the plane. They said it was obvious that the passengers were in the cockpit at the time. [Fixed link and scrambled quotes. – MEB] ---
**Author:** ![johnnyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a698b9/32.png) [@johnnyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnnyk)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/8 "2003-08-08T14:33:56Z")
Be careful about posting complete articles here, Kputt. They seem to have a stricter policy regarding that here than other places. Just an FYI… ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/9 "2003-08-08T14:35:54Z")
It strikes me as being a discussion with very little point. Whether the plane was steered into the ground on purpose or crashed due to a fight over the yoke, the plane’s crashing in Pennsylvania, instead of against a target in Washington, was a direct result of the passenger uprising. Obviously the terrorists did not set out to devastate America by attacking its vital supply of open grass fields; the uprising is what caused the crash. ---
**Author:** ![kputt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@kputt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kputt)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/10 "2003-08-08T14:42:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by johnnyk \* > \*\*Be careful about posting complete articles here, Kputt. They seem to have a stricter policy regarding that here than other places. Just an FYI… \*\* I don’t mean to. It just did. And since that took out the edit your post option, I couldn’t fix it. ---
**Author:** ![kputt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@kputt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kputt)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/11 "2003-08-08T14:43:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*It strikes me as being a discussion with very little point. Whether the plane was steered into the ground on purpose or crashed due to a fight over the yoke, the plane’s crashing in Pennsylvania, instead of against a target in Washington, was a direct result of the passenger uprising. Obviously the terrorists did not set out to devastate America by attacking its vital supply of open grass fields; the uprising is what caused the crash. \*\* You are right. The point of this did go away when someone woke up my blind side. But now, they have the families all upset. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/12 "2003-08-08T17:42:53Z")
> [@](#): > > But now, they have the families all upset. Which is too bad, but the truth is what it is, regardless of how people feel about it. If the data suggests it was a deliberate crash by the hijackers as a response to the uprising instead of a crash brough on directly by the uprising, it makes no difference as far as the result, obviously, and little in any other respect. I guess the families would rather believe what makes them happy. Not really surprising if you ask me. But I happen to think the government is telling the truth here. Why the hell would they change the story except for factual support? Everyone ‘liked’ the story as it was. The fact that they made it into the cockpit doesn’t mean the plane wasn’t crashed deliberately (i.e., the ‘options’ Burnett presents aren’t mututally exclusive), and the pilot’s initial refusal to crash the plane doesn’t mean he didn’t do so later. Also, clarity is an issue. Nobody on the plane is around to explain, everyone - especially the families, I think, because they are basing their opinions on a source that’s not 100% clear. From the ABC story: “The same cockpit recording was played privately in April 2002 for family members of victims aboard Flight 93, and the FBI also provided them with _its best effort_ at producing an _understandable_ transcript.” From USA Today: “Hoglan said the FBI’s transcript quotes one hijacker after fighting breaks out in the cabin asking another hijacker in the cockpit in Arabic, “Finish her/it now?”, and she _believed_ they were discussing whether to crash the plane. The response from the second hijacker, she remembered, _was either “wait” or “not now.”_” And, I think, most importantly: b]“People who have heard the recording describe it as nearly indecipherable, containing static noises, cockpit alarms and wind interspersed with cries in English and Arabic.”\*\* ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/13 "2003-08-08T18:37:54Z")
I never bought the story 100% the way the government said it happened. It obviously served their purpose to present it the way they did, with the passengers battling the terrorists and winning, but it seems obvious there are things they aren’t telling us. Why did it take YEARS for any details about the voice recorder to be released? Is anyone else familiar with [flight93crash.com](http://flight93crash.com)? The author of that site theorized that the plane was shot down by the U.S. administration to prevent it from reaching its target. Personally, the guy struck me as somewhat of a conspiracy nut, but he made a few good points. For example, the phone calls from the “heroes” were discussed ad naseum in the press, but a 911 call from a passenger in the bathroom who described seeing smoke inside the plane was quickly swept under the rug. There were also reports of a fighter jet pursuing the plane that made some newspapers right after the crash. Another odd thing: Why does the USA Today article mention the sound of “wind” on the voice recorder? “containing static noises, cockpit alarms and **wind** interspersed with cries in English and Arabic” What’s strange is that the [flight93crash.com](http://flight93crash.com) website doesn’t appear to be there anymore. It still shows up in a google search, but there’s nothing there when you click on the link. Anyway, I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy nut myself; I’m pretty skeptical about the “shootdown” theory. But I _do_ suspect there’s _something_ the government still isn’t telling us. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Mariachi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71c47a/32.png) [@El\_Mariachi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Mariachi)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/14 "2003-08-08T19:25:30Z")
I’m pretty sure that flight '93 got shot down by a fighter jet, and I’m OK with that. I mean, do the math: two planes already hit some skyscrapers, another one apparently hit the pentagon…now what? Damn straight if I was president I’d order the plane shot down over a field. Why doesn’t anyone have the balls to admit this? The crash site was spread over miles, from what I remember- and most ‘regular’ airline crashes are spread out over a relatively smaller area. If the plane was shot down, its debris would be more scattered- which it was. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/15 "2003-08-08T20:28:39Z")
> [@](#): > > What’s strange is that the [flight93crash.com](http://flight93crash.com) website doesn’t appear to be there anymore. It still shows up in a google search, but there’s nothing there when you click on the link. psst… a little below the search link is the one for the Google cache of the page. That works. However any downstream links will not work. You must do the same google trick looking up the linked page. ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/16 "2003-08-08T20:41:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El Mariachi \* > \*\*I’m pretty sure that flight '93 got shot down by a fighter jet, and I’m OK with that. I mean, do the math: two planes already hit some skyscrapers, another one apparently hit the pentagon…now what? Damn straight if I was president I’d order the plane shot down over a field. Why doesn’t anyone have the balls to admit this? > > The crash site was spread over miles, from what I remember- and most ‘regular’ airline crashes are spread out over a relatively smaller area. If the plane was shot down, its debris would be more scattered- which it was. \*\* In an interview on Meet the Press, Dick Cheney confirmed that the order had been given to shoot down the plane and that fighters were already en route. He also said that after the plane went down, it took two hours to “confirm” that the plane had not been shot down. It was reported as well that during a cell phone conversation, one of the passengers reported smoke out on the wing before the plane went down, a factor which was not attributable to anything that could’ve been done from the cockpit. I think the plane was shot down. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/17 "2003-08-08T20:48:15Z")
Half the conspiracy theories out there say that Flight 93 was shot down by a jet, the other half talk about how suspicious it was that fighter jets weren’t scrambled sooner and that there were so few in the air that day. Make up your minds, people! 😛 Is there really anything to support this idea other than just questions? Any records showing jets anywhere near this plane or something? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/18 "2003-08-08T20:53:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kputt \* > I don’t mean to. It just did. And since that took out the edit your post option, I couldn’t fix it. Look very carefully on your screen, and you will find a “Preview Reply” button. Very handy. Avoids :smack: embarrassment. Does that still work on your computer? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/19 "2003-08-08T20:56:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m pretty sure that flight '93 got shot down by a fighter jet, and I’m OK with that. I mean, do the math: two planes already hit some skyscrapers, another one apparently hit the pentagon…now what? It would have been a cruel twist of fate given that it seems like the passengers had a chance to take over the plane long before it got to its target. It wouldn’t have necessarily been avoidable (given that military intelligence probably didn’t have good info on those cell phone calls), but it certainly would have taken a lot of the emotional wind out of the administrations attempt to co-opt the heroism of passengers if it had shot them down without giving them a chance to save themselves. However, I’m not sure I buy even the barest shootdown theory. For all we know, the terrorists could have had a bomb, and THAT information hasn’t been released. Sounds like “wind” could have very easily been caused by other things, and we have no way of knowing what sort of “smoke” the person saw: they could have simply been confused (grey clouds shooting over the wing as the place descended sharply). We’d also have to know about the suspected path of the crash. If you want to crash a plane, it’s too not hard to simply twist it into a deadly position by turning too sharply: and investigators may have been able to tell, at the very least, the trajectory of the plane into the ground (was it a controlled steer into the ground, a careening tumble, or even a breakup prior to impact). Finally, I don’t know how easy this would have been to cover up: who did the crash analysis and sorted the debris? FAA invesitigators? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/20 "2003-08-08T21:36:36Z")
I’m not necessarily defending the shootdown theory, but to play devil’s advocate, I’ll address some points: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > However, I’m not sure I buy even the barest shootdown theory. For all we know, the terrorists could have had a bomb, and THAT information hasn’t been released. Could be, but why would they keep that a secret? After all, it would be _less_ embarassing for the government to admit that terrorists successfully hijacked a plane with a bomb, than to admit they did it with only boxcutters. > [@](#): > > Sounds like “wind” could have very easily been caused by other things, and we have no way of knowing what sort of “smoke” the person saw: they could have simply been confused (grey clouds shooting over the wing as the place descended sharply). What else could cause wind other than a hole in the fuselage, and why would the cause be kept secret? As for the “smoke”, IIRC the report that the 911 caller saw smoke on the wing was incorrect. I believe he was in the bathroom when he made the call, and the smoke supposedly was coming in under the door. I don’t even know if anyone knows for sure, because the story got classified pretty quickly after the event. I’ve heard it suggested that it could have been some sort of discharge or condensation from the ventilation system. > [@](#): > > We’d also have to know about the suspected path of the crash. If you want to crash a plane, it’s too not hard to simply twist it into a deadly position by turning too sharply: and investigators may have been able to tell, at the very least, the trajectory of the plane into the ground (was it a controlled steer into the ground, a careening tumble, or even a breakup prior to impact). And that info should be available via the flight recorder, so why has so little info been released, even years after the event? > [@](#): > > Finally, I don’t know how easy this would have been to cover up: who did the crash analysis and sorted the debris? FAA invesitigators? IIRC the website I mentioned had links to news articles saying the whole area was cordoned off and protected by armed guards who were arresting anyone who violated the perimeter. A lot has certainly been kept under wraps. I don’t think that by any means proves it was shot down, but it _does_ make me suspect that we haven’t been told everything. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825.md?page=2)