# Government now believes that the hijacker brought down flight 93... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825 "2003-08-08T13:57:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/41 "2003-08-10T10:04:23Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. If the administration was quite up front about saying they were willing to shoot a jet down, why would they say this and then lie about actually doing it? Come on. I don’t think much of anything supports a shootdown, but it pretty darn obvious that admitting a heartwrenching last-chance policy is a pretty big difference from actually having carried it out, especially when in retrospect it turned out that, in this instance, it might have been unecessary and avoidable. The story sounded much too odd in the original telling: the passengers crashed the plane? Why? How? While a total neonate passenger certainly couldn’t pull off a clean landing, it’s not, at least in clear conditions, that hard to keep the plane in flight while ATC talks you through at least some attempt at a survivable hard landing. Unless, of course, the terrorists disabled/broke the key automated systems before getting overpowered, which is certainly a possibility. But the terrorists deliberately or in a struggle putting the plane into a deadly trajectory/speed is really a far more likely scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/42 "2003-08-10T10:26:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > **While a total neonate passenger certainly couldn’t pull off a clean landing…** That’s hardly surprising. A neonate couldn’t: a) sit b) reach the pedals c) reach the stick d) comprehend anything going on. Perhaps you meant a neophyte or something. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/43 "2003-08-10T19:54:24Z")
> [@](#): > > ## \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* According to the ABC piece, quote: > > ## For Gordon Felt of Remsen, N.Y., who was among the victims’ family members who last year heard a private airing of the cockpit voice recorder tape, the passengers should be remembered as heroes — no matter how the plane crashed. It doesn’t say what month, but I guess we can assume that about a year lapsed before they let the families listen to the recording, during which time the official story was that the heroes downed the plane. That is, it was _sort of_ the official story, because they were always careful to qualify everything with words like “perhaps” or “probably”. At any rate, belief in the story of the heroes successfully defeating the hijackers was certainly encouraged during that time. I remember Bush himself getting a lot of mileage out of the story. > [@](#): > > Also, you mention it took the FBI a long time to come to this conclusion, but the bit of info this thread is about came out in July’s congressional report about September 11, and the USA Today link says "Citing transcripts of the still-secret cockpit recordings, Mueller told congressional investigators in a closed briefing _last year_ that, minutes before Flight 93 hit the ground, one of the hijackers “advised Jarrah to crash the plane and end the passengers’ attempt to retake the airplane.” Well if they made the determination last year, and the families were first allowed to listen to the tape last year, then it _does_ fit with my scenario. I distinctly recall reading news articles about the families requesting to hear the recording, and I also distinctly remember the government delaying before they finally allowed the families to listen. So perhaps they _were_ deciding what parts of the story would have to be changed. I’m not saying that’s what happened, just suggesting it as one possible answer to your question “Why would they change their story?”. > [@](#): > > So maybe it took a long time, but it didn’t just happen if the FBI decided last year that this is what happened. They didn’t go public with it for whatever reason (sensitivity, maybe), but it hasn’t taken two years. At most, if Mueller made this report to Congress last year, it took a little over 1 year Yeah, but that’s kind of my point. Why is it only hitting the press _now_ if they’ve known for a year? Sensitivity to whom? The families? How is it any more sensitive to hit people with it now as opposed to a year ago? Or are you suggesting sensitivity to possible legal action against terrorists or possible national security concerns? Were that the case, I would think the government would simply cite such concerns, and that would be the end of it. I can’t imagine a scenario where delaying the truth for a year could have helped bring anyone to justice, can you? ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/44 "2003-08-10T20:12:58Z")
Like **blowero** , I’m not ready to support a conspiracy theory, but I’m very suspicious of the government’s story. It’s been obvious all along that they’ve been covering something up. Am I the only person who heard a news report on September 11 that said that the government had unequivocally stated that the plane had been shot down? It could have been a mistake, but I was listening to the same radio station all day and never heard a correction - the story just kind of disappeared. If the government did shoot the plane down, it would upset a lot of people, even if objectively it was the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/45 "2003-08-10T20:24:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Perhaps you meant a neophyte or something. The only consolation for my stupidity is that that was freakni funny. > [@](#): > > At any rate, belief in the story of the heroes successfully defeating the hijackers was certainly encouraged during that time. I remember Bush himself getting a lot of mileage out of the story. I’m not sure I remember it like that. It was clear that the passengers fought the hijackers, but was it ever definitively stated back then why the plane crashed? Was it ever stated that the passengers were successful in taking control of the cockpit. Because if they had, then the story makes no sense: why wouldn’t there have been cel calls about the success, or asking for help in landing the plane? If the passengers ever did take the cockpit, the plane must have crashed very very soon afterwards, and almost certianly because of something the hjiackers did. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/46 "2003-08-10T20:33:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, but that’s kind of my point. Why is it only hitting the press now if they’ve known for a year? Obviously I’m not in a position to say. A lot of stuff here is, or was, classified. To be really picky about it, the FBI isn’t required to tell the press much of anything. 😛 > [@](#): > > Sensitivity to whom? The families? How is it any more sensitive to hit people with it now as opposed to a year ago? I did mean the families. I’m in agreement with you that the administration got some mileage out of the story. Maybe it’s me, but I think the reaction to this is more muted than it might’ve been a year ago. Just my opinion, though. > [@](#): > > Or are you suggesting sensitivity to possible legal action against terrorists or possible national security concerns? Were that the case, I would think the government would simply cite such concerns, and that would be the end of it. I can’t imagine a scenario where delaying the truth for a year could have helped bring anyone to justice, can you? I can’t think of one either; I was thinking in terms of sensitivity to the families and public reaction. > [@](#): > > Am I the only person who heard a news report on September 11 that said that the government had unequivocally stated that the plane had been shot down? I certainly didn’t hear that, and I didn’t do anything but watch the news for at least 3 or 4 days. Anybody else? > [@](#): > > It could have been a mistake, but I was listening to the same radio station all day and never heard a correction - the story just kind of disappeared. Call me a little cynical as a journalism student, but I find that’s usually what happens when a story is screwed up. Like I said, I heard a report on CNN in the morning or early afternoon on September 11th that a car bomb had detonated in front of the State Department. Nobody apologized. Maybe it was retracted, but retractions of stories are always quiet. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/47 "2003-08-10T20:56:04Z")
I remember reading an article about the F-16s which were the first aircraft to arrive on the scene _after_ Flight 93 crashed. The pilots of those planes were on a training mission, and the planes _were not armed._ So they _couldn’t_ have shot Flight 93 down. The best they could have hoped for was that by buzzing the plane closely they caused the hijackers to panic and lose control of the plane. At worst, one of the fighter pilots would have had to take Flight 93 out kamikaze-style. Perhaps he could have ejected safely at the last possible second, but I don’t know. Secondly, a seismologist realized that when Flight 93 crashed, it should have been detectible by the equipment used for monitoring earth movement. He went and looked at the data, which showed a large, sudden spike at the moment Flight 93 crashed. Had the plane been blown up in the air, the seismographs would have shown _multiple smaller_ spikes, instead of just one large one. ---
**Author:** ![kputt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@kputt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kputt)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/48 "2003-08-10T22:31:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Musicat \* > \*\*Look very carefully on your screen, and you will find a “Preview Reply” button. Very handy. Avoids :smack: embarrassment. Does that still work on your computer? \*\* Well, it’s strange because that’s not what I put in the message box here. I don’t know why it showed up like that. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/49 "2003-08-11T08:11:15Z")
Marley23 and Apos - please attribute your quotes. When you quote someone, you need to indicate who said it. You are both mixing & matching your quotes and giving the false impression that quotes from multiple people are from only one person. Thanks. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > Obviously I’m not in a position to say. A lot of stuff here is, or was, classified. To be really picky about it, the FBI isn’t required to tell the press much of anything. 😛 I think what we’re discussing is _why_ the government sat on the information, not whether they _can_. > [@](#): > > I did mean the families. I’m in agreement with you that the administration got some mileage out of the story. Maybe it’s me, but I think the reaction to this is more muted than it might’ve been a year ago. Just my opinion, though. Then it sounds like you are of the opinion that the government _did_ hide certain things from us. Personally, I’m not in favor of the government misleading the public in the interest of making people “feel” better. I prefer honesty. Here’s why: If you claim that the end justifies the means, and that it’s o.k. to mislead people in the interest of “sensitivity”, then it’s not much of a stretch from there to say that misleading people is o.k. for _any_ purpose, as long as it’s good. And of course “good” can be quite subjective at times. _cough, cough_…Iraq invasion…_cough, cough_…😉 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/50 "2003-08-11T20:31:34Z")
> [@](#): > > You are both mixing & matching your quotes and giving the false impression that quotes from multiple people are from only one person. Chill, **blowero** , who I am now quoting. I was just responding to different things, not attempting to characterize people. 😉 Anyway, you also said: > [@](#): > > Then it sounds like you are of the opinion that the government did hide certain things from us. Personally, I’m not in favor of the government misleading the public in the interest of making people “feel” better. I prefer honesty. I’m of the opinion that I don’t know all the information here, so I’m not willing to committ to a theory on what happened. In this case, the explanation the FBI is giving about Flight 93 fits the facts as I know them. I don’t know if the government is hiding anything or not. And I never said for a moment I’m alright with it if that’s what’s going on; I’m not. And I concur with all your comments about the end justifying the means, in fact I said all the same things regarding the Iraq invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/51 "2003-08-11T20:51:03Z")
> [@](#): > > You are both mixing & matching your quotes and giving the false impression that quotes from multiple people are from only one person. I’ll try to remember, though I don’t think of myself as responding to the person, but to the argument. I’m not trying to create any impression about anyone at all UNLESS I specifically reference them. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/52 "2003-08-11T22:05:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > I’m of the opinion that I don’t know all the information here, so I’m not willing to committ to a theory on what happened. In this case, the explanation the FBI is giving about Flight 93 fits the facts as I know them. I don’t know if the government is hiding anything or not. You’re saying it fits the facts _now_, but most recently, we were talking about the story they were floating _before_, where the passengers supposedly took over the plane and crashed it themselves. I was referring to what they were hiding _before_. > [@](#): > > And I never said for a moment I’m alright with it if that’s what’s going on; I’m not. And I concur with all your comments about the end justifying the means, in fact I said all the same things regarding the Iraq invasion. Well I was going by this: > [@](#): > > I’m in agreement with you that the administration got some mileage out of the story. Maybe it’s me, but I think the reaction to this is more muted than it might’ve been a year ago. Just my opinion, though. I guess I took your earlier comment that they may have sat on the truth out of “sensitivity”, together with this comment that it would serve to mute public reaction, as your tacit endorsement of the policy. So I take it that you are saying that’s not what you meant, right? Then we seem to be in agreement that the government may have mislead us, and that they shouldn’t have done so. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825/53 "2003-08-11T22:19:12Z")
> [@](#): > > I guess I took your earlier comment that they may have sat on the truth out of “sensitivity”, together with this comment that it would serve to mute public reaction, as your tacit endorsement of the policy. If it makes sense, I was speculating as to _why_ they might have sat on the information, not saying they were correct to do it. I agreed with you that the government did get some mileage out of the whole “Let’s roll” story, and as such they may have been loath to deflate it. Doing so now, as opposed to a year earlier for example, doesn’t damage the myth as much. The public reaction is more muted, which is good for them. Government dishonesty isn’t a good thing, and if there was dishonesty here, it was probably of the self-serving variety, whcih isn’t good either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-now-believes-that-the-hijacker-brought-down-flight-93/193825.md?page=2)