# GOVERNMENT REFORM- TOTAL SWEEPING CHANGE **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2000, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202 "2000-01-04T21:23:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/101 "2000-01-06T20:41:00Z")
Hey, I don’t believe the space station stuff either…I was just stating that theoretically you could probably assemble the **parts** from existing programs and utilize them without too many people knowing. And those that do know, may have no idea what they’re working on…Hell, I have no idea what goes on in this building, or how the simulations I run affect real work operations…I just do my job. While I don’t give the Gov. credit for being able to silence everyone, I think you give most people credit for more curiosity than they have. Monty– Hell, no. He’s an idiot with illusions of grandeur. My post was not in support of him at all. Just meant to state that there are things going on that most people don’t know about. mattk– Again, I agree, but if most amateur astronomers saw something that looked like a big satellite, would they just dismiss it as one of the thousands up there?..I’m betting that they don’t pay much attention to things close to the earth…any astronomer types out there that can comment? MikeylikesIT– Hey, do me a favor, don’t help. While I don’t usually post in GD, because most of the regular’s here have more knowledge and better thought out opinions, I have posted before, and consider myself a regular that isn’t know as a flake (till now). Seeing as how you registered yesterday after FA got banned, I really can do without any help…k? Felice– Again, I agree…but while most of the trolls that post the “Gov. is out to get us with alien technology” threads tend to make the Gov out to be more than it is, many people here also make it out to be less than it is. My post really had nothing to do with FA point…I actually think that while our Gov has it’s flaws, and needs some changes made, it still a lot better than some countries I’ve lived in. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/102 "2000-01-06T20:46:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I do have to state that the technology available to the government is higher than most people know. Well, sure. That’s why we have classified material. > [@](#): > > As for posting from a Government computer?..What do you think I do all day? I don’t know. I assume by your tone that you’re posting from a gummint computer. So are lots of other people here. **But you aren’t posting to a public message board while on a secure line.** You are connected to the outside world–therefore, insecure. > [@](#): > > A secure modem for a laptop?..Not a big deal Again, sure. They exist. But only the biggest of fools would be using a secure sat link to post to a public internet message board. And the only secure machines that use all caps are ground-based and \*extremely[/i secure. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t matter if you can pick up the frequency, the data in encrypted. Yup. And of course Ed and Cecil made a point of setting up decryption software on the SDMB so loserboy could post his ramblings. > [@](#): > > f you were to put a satellite in geosyncronis(sp) orbit above a spot that hardly anyone lived under, would they still see it? Possibly not. But a geosynch orbit is still high enough that it can be seen from a long way away. Astronomy folks? How high is a geosynchronous orbit? Then we can figure out how far someone can be away form it and still see it in a telescope above the horizon. Nevertheless, the fact remains that such a space station could not be constructed and launched in total secrecy. Period. If you want to believe it’s possible, you’re welcome to believe it. > [@](#): > > I’ve know about the spy sattelit stuff for years, and was never tempted to tell anyone the details Fine. I agree that most folks with clearances are like that. But there are _always_ some who aren’t. Hell, _Aviation Leak_ . …er, _Week_ magazine managed to find someone to give them specs on the B1B and the B2 before most Americans knew they existed. And those were small projects compared to putting **140 people in a space station!** > [@](#): > > I’m not defending the guy Good thing. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/103 "2000-01-06T20:48:00Z")
Dang UBB codes. Dang computer. Sorry for the redundancy, all. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/104 "2000-01-06T20:51:00Z")
I have to agree with you, but I say this, if it were me, there fear would make me do dumb things to. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/105 "2000-01-06T20:53:00Z")
that was very rude, and Im really not taking all this flak well. Im not sure what you are suggesting about FA? but you need to reconsider how you treat new people. I was agreeing with you, and you flame me? sounds like a personal problem. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/106 "2000-01-06T21:04:00Z")
> [@](#): > > How high is a geosynchronous orbit? Then we can figure out how far someone can be away form it and still see it in a telescope above the horizon. A geostationary orbit occurs at approximately 22,400 miles over the equator. For all intents and purposes, 1/3 of the earth’s surface can “see” a given geostationary satellite. Credit for “discovering” the orbit generally goes to Arthur C. Clarke, who first described it in the 40’s, though he kind of pooh-poohs the idea as obvious. ## FWIIW, geostationary orbits are quite valuable and highly sought after. If Uncle were using one for nefarious purposes, _everybody_ would know (They do use them for communications purposes, and everybody does know). The current and prior generations of U.S. surveillance satellites tend to be in low-earth orbit (LEO), better to be close to the object of curiosity. They also tend to be in rocking-inclined orbits, better to cover more ground. Space stations also tend to be in LEO, if only because of the cost of having them higher. Jesus saves… Gretzky grabs the rebound… He Scores! ---
**Author:** ![RavingMad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@RavingMad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RavingMad)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/107 "2000-01-06T21:17:00Z")
andros, ## Glad you enjoyed my page-2 Onion-esque story! At least _someone_ did. I’ve gotta admit I’m kind of disappointed that it didn’t go over better, but oh well. You win some, you lose some. ~ Complacency is far more dangerous than outrage ~ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2000, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/108 "2000-01-06T21:58:00Z")
Stark i thought it was great, real imagination. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/109 "2000-01-07T03:37:00Z")
A little radio astronomy nitpick here. STARK wrote: > [@](#): > > Aricebo looks for and receives only radio transmissions. Therefore, unless these extra planets are either quasars (kind of negating the definition of ‘planet’), or are broadcasting their local version of WXYZ 106.7 FM, I somehow doubt Aricebo has any dope on them. True, Arecibo (and all other radio telescopes, for that matter) can only detect radio waves. However, (A) the sun emits quite a lot of radio-frequency radiation, and (B) planets and asteroids can and do _reflect_ some incident radio emissions into space, much in the same way an object on Earth reflects radar. Thus, it is theorietically possible to detect a planet by its reflection of solar radio-frequency radiation alone – although it would be one _heck_ of a weak signal. I personally believe FORMERAGENT meant that this newly-discovered planet had aliens on it that were, in fact, broadcasting their local version of WXYZ 106.7 FM. He probably wears an aluminum foil hat to protect his brain from them. * * * The truth, as always, is more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/110 "2000-01-07T03:44:00Z")
Last I heard, WXYZ was at 1270 on the AM bands outside of Detroit, MI. (ABC affiliate.) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/111 "2000-01-07T04:11:00Z")
I’m still trying to figure out how you ‘orbit’ the dark side of the moon. As far as I can recall, an orbit requires going completely around something. Often more than once. I was going to tear his other comments to shreds (a ‘black’ off-budget space station that can support 140 people??? An unknown launch vehicle that makes regular lunar flights to support 140 people???), until I remembered that Trolls are like Tribbles - if you feed them they start to multiply. ---
**Author:** ![special](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/112 "2000-01-07T15:14:00Z")
formeragent also said it would be very difficult to see the space station in the asteroid belt. well, then it would be equally difficult to get/receive transmissions. light & sound waves travel in a straight line. if you couldn’t site it, you couldn’t communicate w/ it. as for amateur astronomers, they are generally far more sophisticated that the designator ‘amateur’ might suggest. i know a couple of the people who were in the group that discovered a recent comet. most of the close-up discoveries (i.e., in this solar system) are made by amateurs. it’s what these guys live for. somebody would have noticed the activity. ---
**Author:** ![Phaedrus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@Phaedrus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phaedrus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/113 "2000-01-07T16:03:00Z")
Hey, ok, I was dumb, I was wrong. But I have known people just like him in the Bureau and “other” agencies. I guess things like that make me a “nervous nellie”. I would rather be safe than sorry. andros, you know a lot about computer stuff, where’d you learn all that? ---
**Author:** ![RavingMad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@RavingMad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RavingMad)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/114 "2000-01-07T16:50:00Z")
tracer, You are, of course, correct about the theoretical possibility of receiving solar-emitted radio signals that have bounced off a planet; but I wonder about the ‘real-world’ possibility of such a task. Any such signal would be, as you say, very weak. Does anybody know if Aricebo (or any other radio telescope) has ever ‘seen’ Pluto? Extra planets would have to be out even further… special, I’m not sure what you mean by this: > [@](#): > > light & **sound** waves travel in a straight line. if you couldn’t [see] it, you couldn’t communicate w/ it. - special. Emphasis added. ## Not to be an ass, but are you suggesting that we communicate with our known space stations by yelling really loudly? Also, sound doesn’t travel in a straight line, anyway, does it? How else could you hear a sound emitted from a source you cannot see? ~ Complacency is far more dangerous than outrage ~ ---
**Author:** ![special](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/115 "2000-01-07T17:55:00Z")
well, stark, healthy skepticism is surely a good thing; but ya see, light & sound are just 2 manifestations of the same thing. (honest. check any physics book.) perhaps you were around when we had guys go to the moon? no? well, we couldn’t communicate w/ them all the time their ship was orbiting the ‘back’ side of the moon. got a cell phone? seen the translator towers? ever go for a ride into the mountains & loose your car radio signal? you were out of range of the transmitters; something was blocking the signal. we can bounce signals off the ionosphere or off some stationary satellite or off translator towers. if it’s the right frequency & there’s a large enough object close by (the earth is large enough), the sound signal–like a light signal–will bend, a little. but for the most part, we only know what those mars probes do when they are in sight because sight = hearing. & once you can see it, sure, go ahead & yell reeeeallly loud. * * * The purpose of life is to matter, to count, to have it make a difference you lived at all. ---
**Author:** ![RavingMad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@RavingMad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RavingMad)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2000, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/116 "2000-01-08T06:50:00Z")
special, I’m sorry, but your attempts at clarification are only confusing me more! You say, > [@](#): > > Light and sound are two manifestations of the same thing This is patently false. Visible light is a manifestation of electromagnetic radiation, just one small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. Light has no physical substance and can travel without benefit of a physical medium to transport it (in other words, light, as well as all other e-mag radiation, can travel through a vacuum). Sound on the other hand, is caused by vibrating air molecules and must have a medium to conduct it (in other words, sound can _not_ travel through a vacuum. Since none of my physics books suggest e-mag radiation and sound are the same stuff, I would welcome any reputable scientific site you could point me to that says otherwise. Of course we could not communicate with any lunar missions when they were cut off from the line-of-sight of the earth. That’s because the method of our communication, radio waves, travel only in straight lines and have a limited depth of penetration into a solid object. In other words, the radio waves could neither bend around the moon, nor penetrate through it the moon to reach our astronauts on the other side. The same is, of course, true for the other form of e-mag radiation you mentioned: cell phone transmitting towers. You then say, > [@](#): > > we can bounce signals off the ionosphere or off some stationary satellite or off translator towers. I have no problem with this statement - assuming that the ‘signals’ you refer to are e-mag radiation near the frequency of radio waves. But in the next sentence you say, > [@](#): > > if it’s the right frequency & there’s a large enough object close by (the earth is large enough), the sound signal–like a light signal–will bend, a little I’m sorry, but huh? Are you saying that _sound_ waves are bounced off the ionosphere?? If so, you are confusing the e-mag signal (the carrier of the information) with the sound that is produced when receiving equipment _translates_ the e-mag signal into audible audio. And finally, the tone of your last sentence suggests that you, too, see the absurdity of trying to communicate via sound waves to a space station. But given the mish-mash of science in the rest of your post, I’m not really sure you fully understand _why_ such an effort would be wasted. Please correct me if I’ve misconstrued any of your statements. * * * ~ Complacency is far more dangerous than outrage ~ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/117 "2000-01-07T19:07:00Z")
dhanson Member posted 01-06-2000 10:11 PM > [@](#): > > I’m still trying to figure out how you ‘orbit’ the dark side of the moon. As far as I can recall, an orbit requires going completely around something. Often more than once. Unless the object is in a geostationary orbit. From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary online: > [@](#): > > geo_sta_tion\*ary (adjective) > > First appeared 1961 > > : being or having an equatorial orbit requiring an angular velocity the same as that of the earth so that the position of a satellite in such an orbit is fixed with respect to the earth ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/118 "2000-01-07T19:09:00Z")
MikeylikesIT Member posted 01-06-2000 02:53 PM > [@](#): > > sounds like a personal problem. This has to be the funniest statement ever posted on this board or its previous incarnations! ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/119 "2000-01-07T19:42:00Z")
Well, **Monty** , sort of. A geostationary orbit takes a satellite completely around the earth just like every other orbit. The difference is that the orbital period is equal to one day, so that the satellite _appears_ to stay over a fixed place. I don’t know whether a “lunarstationary” orbit is possible, given the earth’s gravity, the moon’s slow rotation period and whatnot. I suspect that **dhanson** was just having a little semantic fun with our troll. A “lunarstationary” satellite, if one can exist, wouldn’t “orbit the dark side of the moon” any more than a geostationary satellite “orbits North America.” It would simply orbit the moon, staying on the dark side relative to all us clueless civilians. * * * I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren’t for you meddling kids! ---
**Author:** ![Felice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@Felice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Felice)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2000, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202/120 "2000-01-07T20:03:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Does anybody know if Aricebo (or any other radio telescope) has ever ‘seen’ Pluto? Extra planets would have to be out even further… Interesting question. I don’t know enough about such matters: how HAVE they deduced the existence and characteristics of those planets that have been reported to be orbiting other stars? Also, > [@](#): > > suspect that dhanson was just having a little semantic fun with our troll. A “lunarstationary” satellite, if one can exist, wouldn’t “orbit the dark side of the moon” any more than a geostationary satellite “orbits North America.” It would simply orbit the moon, staying on the dark side relative to all us clueless civilians. ## I am trying to figure out if this is possible (using a couple of coffee cups on my desk) and I just don’t see how it could be. A satellite that remains on the back side of the moon, relative to us, could never orbit the moon. I mean- to orbit the moon, it has to go around the moon, doesn’t it? The rotational period of the moon is so slow (1/28 days) that one side of it is always facing us. So if the satellite is going around the moon, then at least part of the time - well, about half the time, actually - it will be on the side of the moon that IS facing us. Isn’t it? Felice “Everything, once understood, is trivial.” -WES [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-reform-total-sweeping-change/17202.md?page=7)