# Government taking your guns - really worth it for gun owners to die over? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788 "2019-02-18T20:27:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/61 "2019-02-21T15:44:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Due process would be present. As Fear described it, I’m not seeing a lot of due process there. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/62 "2019-02-21T15:51:12Z")
“Described”? You mean “Imagined”? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/63 "2019-02-21T15:59:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “Described”? You mean “Imagined”? So, you ‘imagined’ it with due process tacked on somewhere? You were responding to MEBuckner’s post who was responding to Fear’s post, but you didn’t put in that you imagine an expansion of Fear’s post where due process is in there, somewhere. It’s not intuitively obvious that it would be, so your 5 were sentence is a bit opaque. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/64 "2019-02-21T16:00:49Z")
Point is, if you’re imagining an alternate universe, you can make it follow whatever rules you like. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/65 "2019-02-21T16:03:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Point is, if you’re imagining an alternate universe, you can make it follow whatever rules you like. lol, ok…true enough. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/66 "2019-02-21T16:37:31Z")
The point remains, however, that when anti-gun folks imagine a country where the Second Amendment no longer exists, they tend to imagine that the other Constitutional rights don’t exist (for gun owners). Which is related to what gun owners mean when they say the Second Amendment is key to the other rights in the Constitution. Not merely “I have a gun so I can shoot the feds when they come to grab it”, but people who talk causally about revoking the Second Amendment and then going door-to-door to search for guns reveal something. Namely, that they would regard the other Constitutional rights then in the same way that they regard the RtKaBA now - as something that can be hand-waved away as necessary. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/67 "2019-02-21T20:12:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The point remains, however, that when anti-gun folks imagine a country where the Second Amendment no longer exists, they tend to imagine that the other Constitutional rights don’t exist (for gun owners). > > Which is related to what gun owners mean when they say the Second Amendment is key to the other rights in the Constitution. Not merely “I have a gun so I can shoot the feds when they come to grab it”, but people who talk causally about revoking the Second Amendment and then going door-to-door to search for guns reveal something. Namely, that they would regard the other Constitutional rights then in the same way that they regard the RtKaBA now - as something that can be hand-waved away as necessary. Well, for example, the law that Kamala Harris approved for SF banned handguns and included no recompense for their confiscation. ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/68 "2019-02-21T20:44:47Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Ghost guns - made out of metal and plastic just like official serial numbered factory produced guns made by mechanically inclined pro or hobby gunsmiths. As I pointed out, give me machine tools and I can crank out ghost guns, with limited to Home Depot plumbing supplies and some ingenuity, I can crank out good quality zip guns. At this point in time, I would not go with either thermoplastic or sintered metal printed guns. Here’s a Wikipedia article that is relevant to argument: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khyber\_Pass\_copy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khyber_Pass_copy) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/69 "2019-02-21T21:07:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The point remains, however, that when anti-gun folks imagine a country where the Second Amendment no longer exists, they tend to imagine that the other Constitutional rights don’t exist (for gun owners). > > Which is related to what gun owners mean when they say the Second Amendment is key to the other rights in the Constitution. Not merely “I have a gun so I can shoot the feds when they come to grab it”, but people who talk causally about revoking the Second Amendment and then going door-to-door to search for guns reveal something. Namely, that they would regard the other Constitutional rights then in the same way that they regard the RtKaBA now - as something that can be hand-waved away as necessary. I think most people who would like to repeal the Second Amendment are thinking of a place more like Canada and less like North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/70 "2019-02-21T23:48:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think most people who would like to repeal the Second Amendment are thinking of a place more like Canada and less like North Korea. Or the UK Would they take us back? Lol ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/71 "2019-02-22T01:33:54Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Well, it’s clear from the conversation that some people _don’t_ accept that their gun rights could fairly be taken away by in a hypothetical scenario where public opinion were strong enough to make a (perfectly legal) change to the Constitution. Apparently they believe that their right to own guns rests on something more fundamental than the Constitution. > > I take it that you do not agree with them - that you _would_ abide by a change to the Constitution to restrict gun ownership? Would you think that a constitutional amendment banning free speech, religion, or allowing random searches of homes as just a “perfectly legal” change to society? You mention “basic universal human rights” which comes from the ether yet you snicker at those who call upon natural law as a a source of rights. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/72 "2019-02-22T01:43:38Z")
Yes, I snicker at any claims for “natural rights”. Do lions and bears respect your natural rights? Natural law such as gravity and inertia are very different from human rights. Rights exist only when protected by laws of men. Men decide what rights are, not nature. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/73 "2019-02-22T02:09:31Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > So, in addition to getting rid of that pesky Second Amendment, we’ll also be ditching the Fifth Amendment (“nor be deprived of life, liberty, or _ **property** _, without due process of law”). Why are you crying about an imagined loss of due process when you already have a massive lack of due process in civil forfieture. You act like it doesn’t already exist in your country. You think it happens in other countries too? No - it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/74 "2019-02-22T02:40:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Yes, I snicker at any claims for “natural rights”. Do lions and bears respect your natural rights? Natural law such as gravity and inertia are very different from human rights. Rights exist only when protected by laws of men. Men decide what rights are, not nature. Then what are these “universally recognized human rights” mentioned above? Those surely are not respected by lions and bears. The objection was that slavery is so obviously different because of these human rights. If we only have laws of men and no higher law, then the point raised in the first page of the thread has not been rebutted: If slavery is the law of the land, do we simply respect the law like we “should” respect a repeal of the Second Amendment? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/75 "2019-02-22T07:08:30Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Why are you crying about an imagined loss of due process when you already have a massive lack of due process in civil forfieture. You act like it doesn’t already exist in your country. You think it happens in other countries too? No - it doesn’t. The “asset forfeiture” programs practiced by some police departments in the United States are appalling and, I would say, unconstitutional. From what I can tell, they’re pretty close to highway robbery–by law enforcement agencies, no less–and I firmly support action at the federal level to abolish such odious practices. No one’s property should be seized based on an allegation that that property is the fruit of a crime in the absence of a conviction for that crime. I am not at all sure why being opposed to an existing injustice should prevent me from raising an objection when someone proposes a new and different injustice. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/76 "2019-02-22T10:42:31Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > The “asset forfeiture” programs practiced by some police departments in the United States are appalling and, I would say, unconstitutional. From what I can tell, they’re pretty close to highway robbery–by law enforcement agencies, no less–and I firmly support action at the federal level to abolish such odious practices. No one’s property should be seized based on an allegation that that property is the fruit of a crime in the absence of a conviction for that crime. > > I am not at all sure why being opposed to an existing injustice should prevent me from raising an objection when someone proposes a new and different injustice. Fair enough. I also don’t want to start being the “whattabout” guy… ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/77 "2019-03-01T18:19:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > No. Our sense of fundamental moral principles and universal human rights has improved as civilization has matured. > > The real question is - do you believe that the right to freely own guns (something along the lines of the current American model) is as fundamental and _natural_ a human right as the idea that slavery is wrong, that people cannot be property? Do you believe that the natural human rights of (say) British citizens are being violated by British gun laws? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/78 "2019-03-01T19:09:19Z")
It seems strange that a “natural human right” requires the invention of technology to realize it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/79 "2019-03-01T21:08:50Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It seems strange that a “natural human right” requires the invention of technology to realize it. More or less humans have always had weapons, and the right to defend yourself is thus a natural right. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788/80 "2019-03-01T21:22:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > More or less humans have always had weapons, and the right to defend yourself is thus a natural right. sure, but I don’t see where “Guns” becomes part of it. Unless you are saying the “natural right” is to use the same technology you are defending against. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/government-taking-your-guns-really-worth-it-for-gun-owners-to-die-over/829788.md?page=5)