# Governor Jerry Brown signs assisted suicide bill. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669 "2015-10-06T00:29:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/261 "2015-10-28T18:01:56Z")
Although generally a strong proponent of the right to die with dignity, but this case does leave me a bit uncomfortable. Gauging the degree of informed consent of a 4 year old is difficult Its clear that she hates the resuscitation procedures that are used to revive her and would much rather be in the heaven she’s been told about. But its not clear that she understands that dying of pneumonia might be even more painful than undergoing the procedure. I would also feel better if rather than asking her “would you want to stay home even if it meant you went to heaven”, they worded it in terms of things that she enjoys now that wouldn’t be able to do if she died. “Would you want to stay home even if it meant you would never eat ice cream again”, or “Would you want to stay home even if it meant your mom would never read you a story again.” etc. That said, I’m only basing this on a very short article, and the parents and doctors involved obviously have more experience with her desires and degree of understanding, and for all I know may have covered my concerns. I also believe that they all want what is best for her, and so I don’t condemn them for their decision even if I might make the same decision if I were in their place. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/262 "2015-10-28T19:28:35Z")
[Here’s a longer article](http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/27/health/girl-chooses-heaven-over-hospital-part-1/index.html) about Julianna, with more description of what she went through the last time she was in the hospital. > [@](#): > > Several times a day in the hospital, a nurse would put a tube down her nose and throat, forcing it past her gag reflex and into her lungs to suck the mucus out of the tiny pockets in her airways. It was too dangerous to sedate her for the procedure, so Julianna had to feel everything. > > The task of doing NT suction often fell to nurse Diana Scolaro, who took care of Julianna during all three of her intensive care unit stays at Doernbecher in 2014. Stronger children usually scream and have to be restrained when someone tries to put the tube down their nose. But Julianna was so weak all she could do was cry. > > When she was done, Scolaro would say to Julianna, “Rest now, baby. Maybe you can make it two hours before we have to do it again.” > > But she seldom lasted that long. I’d be willing to let my child suffer like that if it was temporary and there was hope they’d get better. But she’s not and won’t. And the hospital doesn’t even think she’d survive the treatment again - her nerves have continued to degenerate since she was last in the ICU. And **Smapti** , you’ve shown yourself on other topics to be a bit of a psychopath who is unable to feel empathy for others. So your opinion on the matter is pretty much useless. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/263 "2015-10-28T19:29:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We’re _all_ dying. Exactly. It’s just that some of us are dying a little sooner than others, and prefer NOT to fight a losing battle. There’s a difference between taking care of a treatable illness and saying, “no more!” to something that’s most likely not going to do any good, but make her more miserable, just for a few more months. Some people want to die peacefully, at home, in their sleep, rather than in a hospital, hooked up to tubes. And that’s not murder. It sounds like the treatment really isn’t working – and that they’re saying it’s a bit IF. So that’s the reason why I’d support this. If we were talking something like chemo, I’d agree. But this sounds like an exercise in futility. Not to mention torture, since the treatment seems to cause her extreme pain and for what? A few more weeks? Months? She’s not going to last a year, dumbfuck. In fact, the treatment itself may make it even worse. You obviously have some serious issues about this, and you need to deal with them instead of constantly trying to push them on everyone here. Otherwise, shut the fuck up already and quit trying to tell everyone that refusing medical care is murder. You’re a sick bastard, and you need therapy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/264 "2015-10-28T20:25:35Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Some people want to die peacefully, at home, in their sleep, rather than in a hospital, hooked up to tubes. And that’s not murder. And a 4-year-old is in absolutely _no position_ to make that kind of decision, nor do her parents have any right to make it for her. > [@](#): > > Not to mention torture, since the treatment seems to cause her extreme pain and for what? A few more weeks? Months? She’s not going to last a year, dumbfuck. We’ll never know if we kill her now. > [@](#): > > In fact, the treatment itself may make it even worse. …Worse than _being dead_? > [@](#): > > Otherwise, shut the fuck up already and quit trying to tell everyone that refusing medical care is murder. Refusing medicine to a sick child is no better than refusing food to a hungry child. To deny a child something which they will die if they don’t get it is absolutely murder, and you need to acknowledge that that’s what you’re advocating for. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/265 "2015-10-28T20:26:53Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I’d be willing to let my child suffer like that if it was temporary and there was hope they’d get better. But she’s not and won’t. And so you’d choose to kill your child instead. > [@](#): > > And **Smapti** , you’ve shown yourself on other topics to be a bit of a psychopath who is unable to feel empathy for others. I’m not the one coming out in favor of infanticide here. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/266 "2015-10-28T20:43:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And so you’d choose to kill your child instead. YOU once said you wouldn’t even risk your life to save a child in the first place! So shut up the fucking hell up, you goddamned troglogdyte! You make me sick! Go to hell! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/267 "2015-10-28T20:49:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > YOU once said you wouldn’t even risk your life to save a child in the first place! And I’ve also said that I choose not to be a parent so that I won’t _have_ to face such a dilemma. If you’re saying that you _are_ a parent and would allow your child to die _in a situation where you are in absolutely no personal risk whatsoever_ (as opposed to the hypothetical you reference, where I was asked to put my own life in danger), then by your logic you must be an even worse person than you believe I am. I don’t know how you live with yourself. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/268 "2015-10-28T21:02:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And so you’d choose to kill your child instead. Sure. Like you said, “we’re _all_ dying.” So what’s the diff? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/269 "2015-10-28T21:07:37Z")
If only there was a way to make it appear as though she might be resisting a police officer. Then Sampti would be falling all over himself to have her put down. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/270 "2015-10-28T21:08:40Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Sure. Like you said, “we’re _all_ dying.” So what’s the diff? There isn’t any. Therefore, either suicide is always the wrong choice because life has value and should not be destroyed needlessly, or suicide is the only correct choice because we’re all going to die in pain eventually anyway and there’s no use in drawing out the inevitable. Only one of those options is compatible with the continued survival of human civilization and culture. I’ve chosen that one. You’ve chosen the path of universal self-destruction. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/271 "2015-10-28T21:19:29Z")
Huh. I could have sworn there was another option besides the two you present. Oh right, you have to be a non-psychopath to see it. Never mind, carry on. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/272 "2015-10-28T21:24:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > There isn’t any. Therefore, either suicide is always the wrong choice because life has value and should not be destroyed needlessly, or suicide is the only correct choice because we’re all going to die in pain eventually anyway and there’s no use in drawing out the inevitable. > > Only one of those options is compatible with the continued survival of human civilization and culture. I’ve chosen that one. You’ve chosen the path of universal self-destruction. Nope, there are plenty of other options. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/273 "2015-10-28T21:25:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > . . . …Worse than _being dead_? . . . “Being dead” is a kind of contradiction in terms. Actually being dead is rather peaceful: no pain, no hunger, no sorrow. We all were in that state for the first 14 billion years of the universe’s existence, and got along pretty well that way. There are definitely degrees of suffering that are vastly worse than merely “being dead.” When there is no hope for improvement, why prolong the suffering? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/274 "2015-10-28T21:39:08Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > When there is no hope for improvement, why prolong the suffering? There is _always_ hope. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/275 "2015-10-28T22:06:14Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > If only there was a way to make it appear as though she might be resisting a police officer. Then Sampti would be falling all over himself to have her put down. See **BobLibDem** at Post #235: > [@BobLibDem](#): > > There’s a method of assisted suicide that Smapti would heartily endorse: > > 1- Draw a picture of a gun > 2- Hold the picture in your hands > 3- Walk within 50 feet of a cop > 4- Say “boo!” > 5- Die in a hail of gunfire > > Smapti has a high regard for life, as long as it’s the right kind of person. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/276 "2015-10-28T22:29:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > There is _always_ hope. No there isn’t. Again, just because you feel a certain way doesn’t mean everyone else does. ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/277 "2015-10-28T22:47:09Z")
**Smapti** , did something happen to you as a child? It seems like you’ve gone through something traumatic, and you’ve never received proper counseling to deal with it. I’m asking seriously, because I really can’t figure out where your mind is at. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/278 "2015-10-28T22:50:45Z")
My mother survived two suicide attempts when I was young. I’m sure I’ve elaborated on the specifics in the past if you care to go looking for them. I suspect that many of the people who are so completely OK with the idea of suicide haven’t actually experienced the consequences of one, even an unsuccessful one, on those left behind. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/279 "2015-10-28T22:59:30Z")
Smapti, you are seeing this case as “murder.” Others see it as “mercy.” I myself am not entirely comfortable with this case, and I am glad I am not in the family’s position, watching a child suffer so desperately with no hope to cling to. We may all be dying, but I asked you upthread if you felt that adults who enter hospice care – no longer forcing themselves out of bed to go to work – are simply lazy, or if you acknowledge that there is pain and suffering far more acute than your own. I am very sorry your mother attempted suicide. If I may ask, how many people have you lost to a devastating illness such as cancer? Do you realize that painkillers often stop working on those near death? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669/280 "2015-10-28T23:03:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > There is _always_ hope. What’s ironic, here, is the way **Smapti** has been sneering at the parents for expressing a no less rational faith that things will turn out alright. The only real difference is that, unlike the existence of an afterlife, there’s verifiable, objective, peer-reviewed evidence that **Smapti** is wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/governor-jerry-brown-signs-assisted-suicide-bill/733669.md?page=15)