Governor Jerry Brown signs assisted suicide bill.

[Smapti]

@Morgenstern

Let’s try this again.

Say you’re on the 8th floor of a building consumed in fire. Your only two options, leap out the window to a relatively painless death, or suffer the pain of burning to death.

Can you answer the question?

I do not accept the false dilemma here.

I climb down the side of the building. I try the stairs. If I must jump, I aim for something that will cushion my fall and I use my extremities to shield my head and body core. I do anything and everything other than chicken out and accept death.

[SeaDragonTattoo]

@Smapti

Is it your belief that you will never experience pain between now and the permanent, irreversible cessation of your existence when you die? I wish I could share that kind of optimism.

Treatable. Transient. Intermittent. That is the normal pain of life.

Untreatable. Permanent. Excruciating and inevitable. That is the pain of terminal cancer. That is what the new law accounts for and people should be able to opt out of.

I don’t even know why I’m bothering to post. You’re just like the village idiot I had around my workplace for a few years. We argued about whether a cat with cancer should be euthanized. I told her she’d never understand until she was on her own deathbed dying from cancer. I was right.

[kayT]

@Derleth

… taking a position that was, until quite recently, the Difficult Adult Moral Stand on the issue; that is, the position that was difficult to take, the position that required moral fortitude and an adult perspective, and the position that was, therefore, sanctioned by all relevant Morality Dispensers.

It was, in short, the correct position, and if you disagreed with it, well, you still have some growing up to do.

Now, of course, it’s utter drooling demented insanity completely divorced from the simple realities of life.

The parallels to the marriage equality debate are instructive.

What???

[Maggie_the_Ocelot]

@iiandyiiii

In case this is anyone’s first experience with Smapti, it’s helpful to understand other things he believes: he wouldn’t free slaves at little/no risk to himself, he believes that MLK Jr.'s civil disobedience was wrong, and he believes that the only morally correct actions for a slave in the pre-1860s US was to obey their master. He might be the worst (or most heavily damaged) human being on the Dope, at least based on his posts.

And this, ladles and gentlemints, is why Lawful Neutral is a damn scary alignment.

[Lobot]

@Smapti

I do anything and everything other than chicken out and accept death.

Plenty of cowards at the WTC, eh?

[Lobohan]

@Smapti

I do not accept the false dilemma here.

I climb down the side of the building.

There are no handholds. You will fall if you try to climb.

I try the stairs.

The stairs are through the fire. You will suffer fatal burns iin getting to them.

If I must jump, I aim for something that will cushion my fall and I use my extremities to shield my head and body core.

There is only concrete around you and the height will certainly end you.

I do anything and everything other than chicken out and accept death.

So, you are a child then?

[Memnon]

@Smapti

It establishes the precedent that a life lived in pain is not worth living, which, when coupled with the fact that a person can use their power of attorney to order the death of another, opens the door to the state deciding on a person’s behalf when their life is no longer worth living.

It doesn’t do anything of the sort. It gives an individual person the right to decide whether his or her own life is worth living. That’s a decision that the individual is uniquely qualified to make, and that you’re uniquely unqualified to make.

And when you say that power of attorney gives people the right to “order” the deaths of others, what exactly do you mean? Give me a specific circumstance which illustrates your point. Because at the moment it sounds like you think this bill will let people order doctors to kill their relatives whether they like it or not, regardless of their physical or mental condition. Needless to say, this is as far removed from both the text and the spirit of the bill as it’s possible to get.

@Smapti

Which they do. That’s sort of the entire purpose of government.

Not according to the constitution, it isn’t. The government’s job is, at its most basic, to keep people from infringing upon the liberties of others. If the government really did have the right to tell you how to live then it would have the right to force you to be a vegetarian. Forget about this bill for a second. If the government said you had to be a vegetarian, or said you had to wear a crash helmet at all times, would you honestly be ok with that?

@Smapti

I would need to see the legislation to know if I agreed with its specifics or not, but in general, yes.

You don’t think that’s a mite dictatorial?

@Smapti

If the people have the power to make law, then they have the power to make laws determining the worth of other human lives. The option we are presented is whether we want to decide that life is valuable and should be preserved whenever possible, or whether life is cheap and isn’t worth living if it’s less than ideal.

Okay, two things. Firstly, you’re confusing the legal power to do something with the moral right to do it. Nobody has the moral right to determine the worth of another person’s life. The irony here is that determining the worth of other human lives is exactly what governments do when they make assisted suicide illegal. They are saying that a person’s life has an inherent level of value, which is a judgement call they have absolutely no right to make. And besides, if the government has the right to say that a human life has a certain value, what’s to stop them from arbitrarily lowering that value whenever it suits them?

Secondly, you’re presenting a totally false dichotomy. The choice isn’t between whether life is valuable or cheap. It’s between whether a person has the right to determine the value of his own life or whether he doesn’t.

@Smapti

Then you’re not trying hard enough.

Okay, first of all, this is incredibly stupid. Society invests billions into medical research every year. Whether you want to believe it or not, the medical community is trying very hard to cure terminal diseases.

Secondly, may I ask, do you live so as to maximise your longevity? Do you eat a perfectly clean mediterranean diet? Do you work out 3-5 times a week, without fail? Do you abstain from all vices? Do you meditate daily to reduce the harmful effects of stress? Do you take steps to mitigate the harmful effects of air pollution? I mean, if you’re not prepared to maximise your own longevity, what right do you have to tell anyone else to maximise theirs?

[SeaDragonTattoo]

@Derleth

… taking a position that was, until quite recently, the Difficult Adult Moral Stand on the issue; that is, the position that was difficult to take, the position that required moral fortitude and an adult perspective, and the position that was, therefore, sanctioned by all relevant Morality Dispensers.

It was, in short, the correct position, and if you disagreed with it, well, you still have some growing up to do.

Now, of course, it’s utter drooling demented insanity completely divorced from the simple realities of life.

The parallels to the marriage equality debate are instructive.

@kayT

What???

I read it twice. Still, um, what.

[Smapti]

@SeaDragonTattoo

Treatable. Transient. Intermittent. That is the normal pain of life.

Untreatable. Permanent. Excruciating and inevitable. That is the pain of terminal cancer.

Same thing. It’s only a matter of degree.

My knees ache. My left foot screams in agony every step I take. My mouth is constantly full of knives in the places where my teeth used to be. My chest and throat are constantly burning. My thighs chafe when I walk. On days when I don’t have to force myself out of bed to go to work, I lie for hours before I can even get up because of how sore I am all over. Nothing makes any of this pain go away and I have no expectation that it will ever get better. If my family history is any indication, I will someday lose my mind and all the memories and experiences I’ve ever had will slowly fade from my grasp until I can’t even remember who I am - if I don’t die of cancer first.

Should I kill myself? No. I value every second of my existence no matter how painful it is. I work through the pain and I choose to endure because I refuse to allow those things to slow me down.

[iiandyiiii]

@Smapti

I do not accept the false dilemma here.

I climb down the side of the building. I try the stairs. If I must jump, I aim for something that will cushion my fall and I use my extremities to shield my head and body core. I do anything and everything other than chicken out and accept death.

Someone who wouldn’t free slaves at little or no risk to themselves, as you have stated, is in no position whatsoever to call anyone a coward. Based on your posts, you’re the most cowardly poster on the Dope.

[Lobot]

@Smapti

Same thing. It’s only a matter of degree.

Yes, in the same way that a paper cut is the same thing as a gunshot wound.

[Smapti]

@Lobohan

There are no handholds. You will fall if you try to climb.

Then at least I can minimize the height I will fall from.

The stairs are through the fire. You will suffer fatal burns iin getting to them.

Then I can find something that will shield me from the fire.

There is only concrete around you and the height will certainly end you.

From the 8th story? Plenty of people have survived falls from higher up than that.

[Derleth]

I don’t try to be obscure.

Until recently, the authorities were against death with dignity/right to die/whatever this is called now. The religious groups were against it, and that settled it: Life had value, according to the religious authorities, so it was wrong to end it, even if ending it prevented horrible pain and there was no hope of curing the underlying cause.

It was a hard decision, sure, but it was the right one. After all, if the Pope says it’s right, it must be right, right? Bearing up and making the tough decisions is what being an adult is all about, so that difficult decision must be the adult one, if the religious groups say it is.

You might notice that the Roman Catholic Church is still of the opinion that easing someone into an early grave is morally wrong.

Now we recognize that thinking as a steaming load of Smapti and honestly fail to understand how anyone could hold such a nonsensical view of things.

The more things change, the more they’re never the same again.

[Morgenstern]

@Smapti

I do not accept the false dilemma here.

I climb down the side of the building. I try the stairs. If I must jump, I aim for something that will cushion my fall and I use my extremities to shield my head and body core. I do anything and everything other than chicken out and accept death.

It’s funny how you wiggle and squirm when you paint yourself into a corner.

[Lobohan]

@Smapti

Same thing. It’s only a matter of degree.

A tiny gopher dick up your ass is the same thing as a mastodon penis ripping you open and filling your lungs with cum. Only the degree is different. :rolleyes:

My knees ache. My left foot screams in agony every step I take. My mouth is constantly full of knives in the places where my teeth used to be. My chest and throat are constantly burning. My thighs chafe when I walk. On days when I don’t have to force myself out of bed to go to work, I lie for hours before I can even get up because of how sore I am all over. Nothing makes any of this pain go away and I have no expectation that it will ever get better. If my family history is any indication, I will someday lose my mind and all the memories and experiences I’ve ever had will slowly fade from my grasp until I can’t even remember who I am - if I don’t die of cancer first.

That’s trivial compared to the suffering other people endure.

Should I kill myself? No. I value every second of my existence no matter how painful it is. I work through the pain and I choose to endure because I refuse to allow those things to slow me down.

You’re going through trivial pain compared to some people. Assuming that your decision to go on is the same thing as a someone with end-stage cancer shows you have no idea what end-stage cancer is like.

[Smapti]

@Tithonus

And when you say that power of attorney gives people the right to “order” the deaths of others, what exactly do you mean? Give me a specific circumstance which illustrates your point.

Terri Schiavo.

If the government said you had to be a vegetarian, or said you had to wear a crash helmet at all times, would you honestly be ok with that?

I would not personally be happy with it, but I would abide by it.

Firstly, you’re confusing the legal power to do something with the moral right to do it. Nobody has the moral right to determine the worth of another person’s life.

Of course they do - otherwise, absolute pacifism is the only acceptable way of living, and I don’t think you believe that.

And besides, if the government has the right to say that a human life has a certain value, what’s to stop them from arbitrarily lowering that value whenever it suits them?

Nothing, which is why I would prefer not to establish a precedent that that value can or should be lowered.

[Smapti]

@Lobohan

Assuming that your decision to go on is the same thing as a someone with end-stage cancer shows you have no idea what end-stage cancer is like.

I cannot imagine a degree of pain that would make non-existence preferable.

[Memnon]

@Smapti

Then at least I can minimise the height I will fall from.

It won’t make any difference. You’re too high up. Your only choice is to jump to a quick death or spend several minutes burning/choking to death in unbearable pain.

@Smapti

Then I can find something that will shield me from the fire.

Everything that you could possibly use to shield yourself from the fire is already on fire. Your only choice is to jump to a quick death or spend several minutes burning/choking to death in unbearable pain.

@Smapti

From the 8th story? Plenty of people have survived falls from higher up than that.

You’re not really sticking to the spirit of the hypothetical here, are you? Fine. You’re now on the 80th floor. Don’t ask why. You just are. Your ONLY choice is to jump to a quick death or spend several minutes burning/choking to death in unbearable pain.

What do you do?

[iiandyiiii]

@Smapti

I cannot imagine a degree of pain that would make non-existence preferable.

Other people have experienced such a pain.

[kaylasdad99]

@SeaDragonTattoo

I read it twice. Still, um, what.

Derleth is reiterating his point about the Morality Dispensers and the Because I Said So Mandate which he first propounded in a thread this past July, about CatholicVote dot org putting out a video whining about the SCOTUS decision in Obergefell v. Hodges.

He appears to be equating Smapti’s reaction with that of CatholicVote dot org.