GPS accuracy at the South Pole, circa 1911-1912

I do not think the issue was with sextant accuracy. Here is the report from the book:

Here is Amundsen’s account:

So, near the pole the altitude of the sun changes pretty slowly, and they took 24 hours to make a set of observations. Also, the mist in the air caused the image of the sun to jump around, which has to be averaged out. Note that they knew they were a couple of miles north; they theoretically could have repeated the process. The declination of the sun was changing by a couple of minutes per day; on the other hand they had all the noise to contend with, and who knows how much mathematical sophistication they were willing to put into it. Note that they were already getting a mean error of 2’ at 89° 54’; maybe they figured they could not do any better.

…which is super useful if you can figure out the moment of noon :slight_smile:

OK, but determining noon requires knowing your latitude, and knowing your latitude requires knowing your position relative to the pole.

Sure. But the closer you get to the pole, the less accurate the heading needs to be.

I don’t see how the altitude changing slowly really changes things. There will be a high and a low point, and your latitude relative to the pole will be half the difference. Repeat as many times as needed.

The aberrations sound like a bigger deal, if they were causing an error of 2’. I suppose that gets worse when all readings are only ~23° from the horizon. It’s going through a lot of atmosphere at that point.

Bringing a clock along would have made some things easier, but I suppose that wasn’t in the cards given the environmental conditions.

Noon is just the point when the sun is highest in the sky. Of course, that breaks down at the pole, and gets less accurate as you get closer. But you could perform readings farther away and determine a heading based on distant landmarks.

And how do you know it’s noon? The sun just goes around in a circle, height changing only with the season. How do you know what time zone you are in (assuming they had time zones then). In fact, noon would be defined by the time your shadow points due south.

The time zone matters if you want to know when it’s 12:00. But noon (and in case it’s not clear, I’m talking solar noon) is just when the sun is at its highest point.

As I mentioned, that breaks down when you’re exactly at the pole, and your ability to discern the time of the highest point gets worse as you get closer, but there is nevertheless still a highest point if you’re any finite distance from the pole.

They did stay in one spot for 24 hours and observe the (very slowly changing) altitude of the sun; I understood from the quoted paragraphs that the data was noisy enough that they determined they were at the limit of their precision, at the same time there was no doubt they were not exactly at the pole. They decided just to walk in a circle around where the pole was sure to be.

Putting up a tent and a foucault pendulum wouldn’t have worked. The staff down there did that in 2001 and they had to keep tweaking it over and over.

If they had a clock of modest accuracy (could keep decent time over a 1-day period), using the phase of the sun might have better results. That is, determine the high and low points, then determine the time that the sun passes through the halfway mark (both rising and falling). Noon (or midnight) is halfway between those points.

But greatest altitude will not coincide with the moment of transit, even pretty close but not exactly on the pole. Of course, they had enough observations to work everything out, which is exactly what Anton Alexander did if you read what he wrote, but he says that “The moments of culmination could, of course, only be determined very approximately” and does not presume any more precision than that the tent was “between 89° 57’ and 89° 59’”. On or very near the pole itself, of course the altitude would just gradually keep increasing so you would not try to observe any up and down oscillations.

Perhaps that is one reason why they did not try to repeat 24 hours of observation nearer the pole; they just walked south (as best they could determine it) from the tent and called it good enough.

Sorry, haven’t had a chance to more than skim the passages yet. I agree that there are some other factors they’d have to correct for, though I’m not sure why you’d stop observing oscillations except when right at the pole. Even tiny deviations should be easily measurable; in fact they’d get more accurate as they got closer since the amount of atmosphere being passed through would vary less.

Since they arrived at the pole on Dec 11, the sun wouldn’t be quite at 23.5°, though I don’t have a table handy to tell me what it would have been. Wouldn’t be much different, though that close to the pole it might have been significant. At any rate, all easily determined via table.

Regardless, if their mean error was 2’, then they aren’t going to get too much closer than that unless they average over a very long period. Too bad they didn’t have the (not Sun) stars available, but I guess it gets pretty chilly down there in June…

At the south pole, shadows all point north all the time, don’t they?

Yep so you could wait for your shadow to point north then you’d know you were at the pole. :wink: :wink:

The trigonometry to figure out exactly how close you can get to the pole is not too bad, but let’s run some numbers through the computer first. Ignoring refraction and other issues, let’s print out the apparent altitude of the Sun every hour at the pole:

Summary
Target body name: Sun (10)                        {source: DE441}
Center body name: Earth (399)                     {source: DE441}
Center-site name: (user defined site below)
*******************************************************************************
Start time      : A.D. 1911-Dec-15 00:00:00.0000 UT      
Stop  time      : A.D. 1911-Dec-16 00:00:00.0000 UT      
Step-size       : 60 minutes
*******************************************************************************
Target pole/equ : IAU_SUN                         {East-longitude positive}
Target radii    : 696000.0 x 696000.0 x 696000.0 k{Equator, meridian, pole}    
Center geodetic : 60.0000000,-90.000000,3.919E-13 {E-lon(deg),Lat(deg),Alt(km)}
Center cylindric: 60.0000000,3.9186E-13,-6356.752 {E-lon(deg),Dxy(km),Dz(km)}
Center pole/equ : ITRF93                          {East-longitude positive}
Center radii    : 6378.1 x 6378.1 x 6356.8 km     {Equator, meridian, pole}    
Target primary  : Sun
Vis. interferer : MOON (R_eq= 1737.400) km        {source: DE441}
Rel. light bend : Sun, EARTH                      {source: DE441}
Rel. lght bnd GM: 1.3271E+11, 3.9860E+05 km^3/s^2                              
Atmos refraction: NO (AIRLESS)
RA format       : HMS
Time format     : CAL 
EOP file        : eop.220728.p221021                                           
EOP coverage    : DATA-BASED 1962-JAN-20 TO 2022-JUL-28. PREDICTS-> 2022-OCT-20
Units conversion: 1 au= 149597870.700 km, c= 299792.458 km/s, 1 day= 86400.0 s 
Table cut-offs 1: Elevation (-90.0deg=NO ),Airmass (>38.000=NO), Daylight (NO )
Table cut-offs 2: Solar elongation (  0.0,180.0=NO ),Local Hour Angle( 0.0=NO )
Table cut-offs 3: RA/DEC angular rate (     0.0=NO )                           
*********************************************************************************************************
 Date__(UT)__HR:MN     R.A.__(a-apparent)__DEC  Azi____(a-app)___Elev  Sky_motion  Sky_mot_PA  RelVel-ANG
*********************************************************************************************************
$$SOE
 1911-Dec-15 00:00 *m  17 24 43.37 -23 12 09.4  273.384665  23.202617   2.5440417   93.500378   -0.301779
 1911-Dec-15 01:00 *m  17 24 54.43 -23 12 18.7  258.389645  23.205199   2.5440698   93.482237   -0.301202
 1911-Dec-15 02:00 *m  17 25 05.48 -23 12 28.0  243.394627  23.207767   2.5440978   93.464092   -0.300625
 1911-Dec-15 03:00 *m  17 25 16.53 -23 12 37.2  228.399612  23.210322   2.5441256   93.445945   -0.300050
 1911-Dec-15 04:00 *m  17 25 27.58 -23 12 46.3  213.404599  23.212864   2.5441534   93.427795   -0.299476
 1911-Dec-15 05:00 *m  17 25 38.64 -23 12 55.4  198.409588  23.215392   2.5441811   93.409642   -0.298903
 1911-Dec-15 06:00 *m  17 25 49.69 -23 13 04.5  183.414579  23.217907   2.5442088   93.391485   -0.298331
 1911-Dec-15 07:00 *m  17 26 00.75 -23 13 13.5  168.419573  23.220409   2.5442363   93.373326   -0.297760
 1911-Dec-15 08:00 *m  17 26 11.80 -23 13 22.4  153.424569  23.222897   2.5442637   93.355165   -0.297190
 1911-Dec-15 09:00 *m  17 26 22.86 -23 13 31.3  138.429567  23.225372   2.5442911   93.337000   -0.296622
 1911-Dec-15 10:00 *m  17 26 33.91 -23 13 40.2  123.434567  23.227833   2.5443184   93.318832   -0.296054
 1911-Dec-15 11:00 *m  17 26 44.97 -23 13 49.0  108.439569  23.230281   2.5443455   93.300661   -0.295487
 1911-Dec-15 12:00 *m  17 26 56.03 -23 13 57.8   93.444574  23.232715   2.5443726   93.282488   -0.294921
 1911-Dec-15 13:00 *m  17 27 07.09 -23 14 06.5   78.449581  23.235136   2.5443996   93.264312   -0.294356
 1911-Dec-15 14:00 *m  17 27 18.15 -23 14 15.2   63.454590  23.237544   2.5444266   93.246132   -0.293792
 1911-Dec-15 15:00 *m  17 27 29.21 -23 14 23.8   48.459601  23.239938   2.5444534   93.227950   -0.293229
 1911-Dec-15 16:00 *m  17 27 40.26 -23 14 32.3   33.464614  23.242319   2.5444801   93.209766   -0.292667
 1911-Dec-15 17:00 *m  17 27 51.32 -23 14 40.9   18.469629  23.244686   2.5445068   93.191578   -0.292105
 1911-Dec-15 18:00 *m  17 28 02.39 -23 14 49.3    3.474647  23.247040   2.5445334   93.173388   -0.291545
 1911-Dec-15 19:00 *m  17 28 13.45 -23 14 57.8  348.479666  23.249381   2.5445598   93.155194   -0.290986
 1911-Dec-15 20:00 *m  17 28 24.51 -23 15 06.1  333.484688  23.251708   2.5445862   93.136999   -0.290427
 1911-Dec-15 21:00 *m  17 28 35.57 -23 15 14.5  318.489712  23.254022   2.5446126   93.118800   -0.289870
 1911-Dec-15 22:00 *m  17 28 46.63 -23 15 22.8  303.494738  23.256322   2.5446388   93.100599   -0.289313
 1911-Dec-15 23:00 *m  17 28 57.70 -23 15 31.0  288.499766  23.258609   2.5446649   93.082395   -0.288758
 1911-Dec-16 00:00 *m  17 29 08.76 -23 15 39.2  273.504796  23.260882   2.5446910   93.064188   -0.288203
$$EOE
*********************************************************************************************************

As expected, it slowly increases.

Now at 89° 59’:

Summary
 1911-Dec-15 00:00 *m  17 24 43.37 -23 12 09.4  118.757074  23.194599   2.5440474   93.500459   -0.301985
 1911-Dec-15 01:00 *m  17 24 54.43 -23 12 18.7  103.762732  23.201235   2.5440727   93.482331   -0.301430
 1911-Dec-15 02:00 *m  17 25 05.48 -23 12 28.0   88.767919  23.208127   2.5440978   93.464193   -0.300861
 1911-Dec-15 03:00 *m  17 25 16.53 -23 12 37.2   73.772622  23.214981   2.5441227   93.446046   -0.300276
 1911-Dec-15 04:00 *m  17 25 27.58 -23 12 46.3   58.776860  23.221504   2.5441478   93.427889   -0.299678
 1911-Dec-15 05:00 *m  17 25 38.64 -23 12 55.4   43.780683  23.227426   2.5441731   93.409722   -0.299066
 1911-Dec-15 06:00 *m  17 25 49.69 -23 13 04.5   28.784170  23.232515   2.5441989   93.391547   -0.298445
 1911-Dec-15 07:00 *m  17 26 00.75 -23 13 13.5   13.787425  23.236595   2.5442253   93.373365   -0.297817
 1911-Dec-15 08:00 *m  17 26 11.80 -23 13 22.4  358.790565  23.239560   2.5442524   93.355177   -0.297186
 1911-Dec-15 09:00 *m  17 26 22.86 -23 13 31.3  343.793717  23.241376   2.5442801   93.336986   -0.296557
 1911-Dec-15 10:00 *m  17 26 33.91 -23 13 40.2  328.797007  23.242089   2.5443085   93.318792   -0.295933
 1911-Dec-15 11:00 *m  17 26 44.97 -23 13 49.0  313.800551  23.241817   2.5443375   93.300599   -0.295318
 1911-Dec-15 12:00 *m  17 26 56.03 -23 13 57.8  298.804450  23.240746   2.5443670   93.282407   -0.294715
 1911-Dec-15 13:00 *m  17 27 07.09 -23 14 06.5  283.808778  23.239115   2.5443967   93.264217   -0.294128
 1911-Dec-15 14:00 *m  17 27 18.15 -23 14 15.2  268.813581  23.237200   2.5444266   93.246031   -0.293557
 1911-Dec-15 15:00 *m  17 27 29.20 -23 14 23.8  253.818874  23.235294   2.5444563   93.227850   -0.293003
 1911-Dec-15 16:00 *m  17 27 40.26 -23 14 32.3  238.824637  23.233692   2.5444858   93.209672   -0.292465
 1911-Dec-15 17:00 *m  17 27 51.32 -23 14 40.9  223.830819  23.232664   2.5445148   93.191498   -0.291942
 1911-Dec-15 18:00 *m  17 28 02.39 -23 14 49.3  208.837341  23.232441   2.5445432   93.173327   -0.291431
 1911-Dec-15 19:00 *m  17 28 13.45 -23 14 57.8  193.844101  23.233198   2.5445708   93.155157   -0.290928
 1911-Dec-15 20:00 *m  17 28 24.51 -23 15 06.1  178.850979  23.235044   2.5445976   93.136987   -0.290431
 1911-Dec-15 21:00 *m  17 28 35.57 -23 15 14.5  163.857850  23.238012   2.5446235   93.118815   -0.289934
 1911-Dec-15 22:00 *m  17 28 46.63 -23 15 22.8  148.864588  23.242056   2.5446486   93.100639   -0.289434
 1911-Dec-15 23:00 *m  17 28 57.70 -23 15 31.0  133.871076  23.247059   2.5446730   93.082458   -0.288927
 1911-Dec-16 00:00 *m  17 29 08.76 -23 15 39.2  118.877216  23.252834   2.5446966   93.064270   -0.288409

It goes up and down, all right. But let’s be at 89° 59’.5 :

Summary
1911-Dec-15 00:00 *m  17 24 43.37 -23 12 09.4  118.857132  23.198595   2.5440446   93.500418   -0.301882
 1911-Dec-15 01:00 *m  17 24 54.43 -23 12 18.7  103.862452  23.203202   2.5440713   93.482284   -0.301316
 1911-Dec-15 02:00 *m  17 25 05.48 -23 12 28.0   88.867539  23.207932   2.5440978   93.464143   -0.300743
 1911-Dec-15 03:00 *m  17 25 16.53 -23 12 37.2   73.872384  23.212637   2.5441242   93.445995   -0.300163
 1911-Dec-15 04:00 *m  17 25 27.58 -23 12 46.3   58.876998  23.217172   2.5441506   93.427842   -0.299577
 1911-Dec-15 05:00 *m  17 25 38.64 -23 12 55.4   43.881405  23.221399   2.5441771   93.409682   -0.298985
 1911-Dec-15 06:00 *m  17 25 49.69 -23 13 04.5   28.885645  23.225204   2.5442038   93.391516   -0.298388
 1911-Dec-15 07:00 *m  17 26 00.75 -23 13 13.5   13.889770  23.228499   2.5442308   93.373346   -0.297789
 1911-Dec-15 08:00 *m  17 26 11.80 -23 13 22.4  358.893839  23.231229   2.5442581   93.355171   -0.297188
 1911-Dec-15 09:00 *m  17 26 22.86 -23 13 31.3  343.897914  23.233378   2.5442856   93.336993   -0.296589
 1911-Dec-15 10:00 *m  17 26 33.91 -23 13 40.2  328.902058  23.234969   2.5443134   93.318812   -0.295993
 1911-Dec-15 11:00 *m  17 26 44.97 -23 13 49.0  313.906331  23.236060   2.5443415   93.300630   -0.295402
 1911-Dec-15 12:00 *m  17 26 56.03 -23 13 57.8  298.910781  23.236744   2.5443698   93.282447   -0.294818
 1911-Dec-15 13:00 *m  17 27 07.09 -23 14 06.5  283.915446  23.237141   2.5443982   93.264264   -0.294242
 1911-Dec-15 14:00 *m  17 27 18.15 -23 14 15.2  268.920351  23.237387   2.5444266   93.246082   -0.293674
 1911-Dec-15 15:00 *m  17 27 29.21 -23 14 23.8  253.925501  23.237631   2.5444549   93.227900   -0.293116
 1911-Dec-15 16:00 *m  17 27 40.26 -23 14 32.3  238.930887  23.238019   2.5444830   93.209719   -0.292566
 1911-Dec-15 17:00 *m  17 27 51.32 -23 14 40.9  223.936485  23.238686   2.5445108   93.191538   -0.292024
 1911-Dec-15 18:00 *m  17 28 02.39 -23 14 49.3  208.942254  23.239748   2.5445383   93.173357   -0.291488
 1911-Dec-15 19:00 *m  17 28 13.45 -23 14 57.8  193.948143  23.241293   2.5445653   93.155176   -0.290957
 1911-Dec-15 20:00 *m  17 28 24.51 -23 15 06.1  178.954093  23.243376   2.5445919   93.136993   -0.290429
 1911-Dec-15 21:00 *m  17 28 35.57 -23 15 14.5  163.960040  23.246013   2.5446180   93.118807   -0.289902
 1911-Dec-15 22:00 *m  17 28 46.63 -23 15 22.8  148.965923  23.249182   2.5446437   93.100619   -0.289374
 1911-Dec-15 23:00 *m  17 28 57.70 -23 15 31.0  133.971682  23.252823   2.5446689   93.082427   -0.288842
 1911-Dec-16 00:00 *m  17 29 08.76 -23 15 39.2  118.977268  23.256845   2.5446938   93.064229   -0.288306

It looks like it is (barely) monotonically increasing.

Preliminary conclusion: if the sun continuously rises, you must be pretty close to the pole, but maybe not exactly (you could be up to half a mile away). If you observe oscillations, you did not make it within half a mile of the pole. On 15 December 1911, 60°E.

Latitude or longitude?

Note that this is because the ice moves, not an actual movement of the pole. It says so at the link, but they don’t emphasize it. If you missed that point, you might get the idea that the pole is actually moving in a straight line.

Longitude. Even when I stop to think about it, I still often get those two mixed up. And I think that when I made that post, I didn’t stop to think about it. Thanks for catching that.