I do not think the issue was with sextant accuracy. Here is the report from the book:
Here is Amundsen’s account:
I do not think the issue was with sextant accuracy. Here is the report from the book:
Here is Amundsen’s account:
So, near the pole the altitude of the sun changes pretty slowly, and they took 24 hours to make a set of observations. Also, the mist in the air caused the image of the sun to jump around, which has to be averaged out. Note that they knew they were a couple of miles north; they theoretically could have repeated the process. The declination of the sun was changing by a couple of minutes per day; on the other hand they had all the noise to contend with, and who knows how much mathematical sophistication they were willing to put into it. Note that they were already getting a mean error of 2’ at 89° 54’; maybe they figured they could not do any better.
…which is super useful if you can figure out the moment of noon
OK, but determining noon requires knowing your latitude, and knowing your latitude requires knowing your position relative to the pole.
Sure. But the closer you get to the pole, the less accurate the heading needs to be.
I don’t see how the altitude changing slowly really changes things. There will be a high and a low point, and your latitude relative to the pole will be half the difference. Repeat as many times as needed.
The aberrations sound like a bigger deal, if they were causing an error of 2’. I suppose that gets worse when all readings are only ~23° from the horizon. It’s going through a lot of atmosphere at that point.
Bringing a clock along would have made some things easier, but I suppose that wasn’t in the cards given the environmental conditions.
Noon is just the point when the sun is highest in the sky. Of course, that breaks down at the pole, and gets less accurate as you get closer. But you could perform readings farther away and determine a heading based on distant landmarks.
And how do you know it’s noon? The sun just goes around in a circle, height changing only with the season. How do you know what time zone you are in (assuming they had time zones then). In fact, noon would be defined by the time your shadow points due south.
The time zone matters if you want to know when it’s 12:00. But noon (and in case it’s not clear, I’m talking solar noon) is just when the sun is at its highest point.
As I mentioned, that breaks down when you’re exactly at the pole, and your ability to discern the time of the highest point gets worse as you get closer, but there is nevertheless still a highest point if you’re any finite distance from the pole.
They did stay in one spot for 24 hours and observe the (very slowly changing) altitude of the sun; I understood from the quoted paragraphs that the data was noisy enough that they determined they were at the limit of their precision, at the same time there was no doubt they were not exactly at the pole. They decided just to walk in a circle around where the pole was sure to be.
Putting up a tent and a foucault pendulum wouldn’t have worked. The staff down there did that in 2001 and they had to keep tweaking it over and over.
If they had a clock of modest accuracy (could keep decent time over a 1-day period), using the phase of the sun might have better results. That is, determine the high and low points, then determine the time that the sun passes through the halfway mark (both rising and falling). Noon (or midnight) is halfway between those points.
But greatest altitude will not coincide with the moment of transit, even pretty close but not exactly on the pole. Of course, they had enough observations to work everything out, which is exactly what Anton Alexander did if you read what he wrote, but he says that “The moments of culmination could, of course, only be determined very approximately” and does not presume any more precision than that the tent was “between 89° 57’ and 89° 59’”. On or very near the pole itself, of course the altitude would just gradually keep increasing so you would not try to observe any up and down oscillations.
Perhaps that is one reason why they did not try to repeat 24 hours of observation nearer the pole; they just walked south (as best they could determine it) from the tent and called it good enough.
Sorry, haven’t had a chance to more than skim the passages yet. I agree that there are some other factors they’d have to correct for, though I’m not sure why you’d stop observing oscillations except when right at the pole. Even tiny deviations should be easily measurable; in fact they’d get more accurate as they got closer since the amount of atmosphere being passed through would vary less.
Since they arrived at the pole on Dec 11, the sun wouldn’t be quite at 23.5°, though I don’t have a table handy to tell me what it would have been. Wouldn’t be much different, though that close to the pole it might have been significant. At any rate, all easily determined via table.
Regardless, if their mean error was 2’, then they aren’t going to get too much closer than that unless they average over a very long period. Too bad they didn’t have the (not Sun) stars available, but I guess it gets pretty chilly down there in June…
At the south pole, shadows all point north all the time, don’t they?
Yep so you could wait for your shadow to point north then you’d know you were at the pole.
The trigonometry to figure out exactly how close you can get to the pole is not too bad, but let’s run some numbers through the computer first. Ignoring refraction and other issues, let’s print out the apparent altitude of the Sun every hour at the pole:
Target body name: Sun (10) {source: DE441}
Center body name: Earth (399) {source: DE441}
Center-site name: (user defined site below)
*******************************************************************************
Start time : A.D. 1911-Dec-15 00:00:00.0000 UT
Stop time : A.D. 1911-Dec-16 00:00:00.0000 UT
Step-size : 60 minutes
*******************************************************************************
Target pole/equ : IAU_SUN {East-longitude positive}
Target radii : 696000.0 x 696000.0 x 696000.0 k{Equator, meridian, pole}
Center geodetic : 60.0000000,-90.000000,3.919E-13 {E-lon(deg),Lat(deg),Alt(km)}
Center cylindric: 60.0000000,3.9186E-13,-6356.752 {E-lon(deg),Dxy(km),Dz(km)}
Center pole/equ : ITRF93 {East-longitude positive}
Center radii : 6378.1 x 6378.1 x 6356.8 km {Equator, meridian, pole}
Target primary : Sun
Vis. interferer : MOON (R_eq= 1737.400) km {source: DE441}
Rel. light bend : Sun, EARTH {source: DE441}
Rel. lght bnd GM: 1.3271E+11, 3.9860E+05 km^3/s^2
Atmos refraction: NO (AIRLESS)
RA format : HMS
Time format : CAL
EOP file : eop.220728.p221021
EOP coverage : DATA-BASED 1962-JAN-20 TO 2022-JUL-28. PREDICTS-> 2022-OCT-20
Units conversion: 1 au= 149597870.700 km, c= 299792.458 km/s, 1 day= 86400.0 s
Table cut-offs 1: Elevation (-90.0deg=NO ),Airmass (>38.000=NO), Daylight (NO )
Table cut-offs 2: Solar elongation ( 0.0,180.0=NO ),Local Hour Angle( 0.0=NO )
Table cut-offs 3: RA/DEC angular rate ( 0.0=NO )
*********************************************************************************************************
Date__(UT)__HR:MN R.A.__(a-apparent)__DEC Azi____(a-app)___Elev Sky_motion Sky_mot_PA RelVel-ANG
*********************************************************************************************************
$$SOE
1911-Dec-15 00:00 *m 17 24 43.37 -23 12 09.4 273.384665 23.202617 2.5440417 93.500378 -0.301779
1911-Dec-15 01:00 *m 17 24 54.43 -23 12 18.7 258.389645 23.205199 2.5440698 93.482237 -0.301202
1911-Dec-15 02:00 *m 17 25 05.48 -23 12 28.0 243.394627 23.207767 2.5440978 93.464092 -0.300625
1911-Dec-15 03:00 *m 17 25 16.53 -23 12 37.2 228.399612 23.210322 2.5441256 93.445945 -0.300050
1911-Dec-15 04:00 *m 17 25 27.58 -23 12 46.3 213.404599 23.212864 2.5441534 93.427795 -0.299476
1911-Dec-15 05:00 *m 17 25 38.64 -23 12 55.4 198.409588 23.215392 2.5441811 93.409642 -0.298903
1911-Dec-15 06:00 *m 17 25 49.69 -23 13 04.5 183.414579 23.217907 2.5442088 93.391485 -0.298331
1911-Dec-15 07:00 *m 17 26 00.75 -23 13 13.5 168.419573 23.220409 2.5442363 93.373326 -0.297760
1911-Dec-15 08:00 *m 17 26 11.80 -23 13 22.4 153.424569 23.222897 2.5442637 93.355165 -0.297190
1911-Dec-15 09:00 *m 17 26 22.86 -23 13 31.3 138.429567 23.225372 2.5442911 93.337000 -0.296622
1911-Dec-15 10:00 *m 17 26 33.91 -23 13 40.2 123.434567 23.227833 2.5443184 93.318832 -0.296054
1911-Dec-15 11:00 *m 17 26 44.97 -23 13 49.0 108.439569 23.230281 2.5443455 93.300661 -0.295487
1911-Dec-15 12:00 *m 17 26 56.03 -23 13 57.8 93.444574 23.232715 2.5443726 93.282488 -0.294921
1911-Dec-15 13:00 *m 17 27 07.09 -23 14 06.5 78.449581 23.235136 2.5443996 93.264312 -0.294356
1911-Dec-15 14:00 *m 17 27 18.15 -23 14 15.2 63.454590 23.237544 2.5444266 93.246132 -0.293792
1911-Dec-15 15:00 *m 17 27 29.21 -23 14 23.8 48.459601 23.239938 2.5444534 93.227950 -0.293229
1911-Dec-15 16:00 *m 17 27 40.26 -23 14 32.3 33.464614 23.242319 2.5444801 93.209766 -0.292667
1911-Dec-15 17:00 *m 17 27 51.32 -23 14 40.9 18.469629 23.244686 2.5445068 93.191578 -0.292105
1911-Dec-15 18:00 *m 17 28 02.39 -23 14 49.3 3.474647 23.247040 2.5445334 93.173388 -0.291545
1911-Dec-15 19:00 *m 17 28 13.45 -23 14 57.8 348.479666 23.249381 2.5445598 93.155194 -0.290986
1911-Dec-15 20:00 *m 17 28 24.51 -23 15 06.1 333.484688 23.251708 2.5445862 93.136999 -0.290427
1911-Dec-15 21:00 *m 17 28 35.57 -23 15 14.5 318.489712 23.254022 2.5446126 93.118800 -0.289870
1911-Dec-15 22:00 *m 17 28 46.63 -23 15 22.8 303.494738 23.256322 2.5446388 93.100599 -0.289313
1911-Dec-15 23:00 *m 17 28 57.70 -23 15 31.0 288.499766 23.258609 2.5446649 93.082395 -0.288758
1911-Dec-16 00:00 *m 17 29 08.76 -23 15 39.2 273.504796 23.260882 2.5446910 93.064188 -0.288203
$$EOE
*********************************************************************************************************
As expected, it slowly increases.
Now at 89° 59’:
1911-Dec-15 00:00 *m 17 24 43.37 -23 12 09.4 118.757074 23.194599 2.5440474 93.500459 -0.301985
1911-Dec-15 01:00 *m 17 24 54.43 -23 12 18.7 103.762732 23.201235 2.5440727 93.482331 -0.301430
1911-Dec-15 02:00 *m 17 25 05.48 -23 12 28.0 88.767919 23.208127 2.5440978 93.464193 -0.300861
1911-Dec-15 03:00 *m 17 25 16.53 -23 12 37.2 73.772622 23.214981 2.5441227 93.446046 -0.300276
1911-Dec-15 04:00 *m 17 25 27.58 -23 12 46.3 58.776860 23.221504 2.5441478 93.427889 -0.299678
1911-Dec-15 05:00 *m 17 25 38.64 -23 12 55.4 43.780683 23.227426 2.5441731 93.409722 -0.299066
1911-Dec-15 06:00 *m 17 25 49.69 -23 13 04.5 28.784170 23.232515 2.5441989 93.391547 -0.298445
1911-Dec-15 07:00 *m 17 26 00.75 -23 13 13.5 13.787425 23.236595 2.5442253 93.373365 -0.297817
1911-Dec-15 08:00 *m 17 26 11.80 -23 13 22.4 358.790565 23.239560 2.5442524 93.355177 -0.297186
1911-Dec-15 09:00 *m 17 26 22.86 -23 13 31.3 343.793717 23.241376 2.5442801 93.336986 -0.296557
1911-Dec-15 10:00 *m 17 26 33.91 -23 13 40.2 328.797007 23.242089 2.5443085 93.318792 -0.295933
1911-Dec-15 11:00 *m 17 26 44.97 -23 13 49.0 313.800551 23.241817 2.5443375 93.300599 -0.295318
1911-Dec-15 12:00 *m 17 26 56.03 -23 13 57.8 298.804450 23.240746 2.5443670 93.282407 -0.294715
1911-Dec-15 13:00 *m 17 27 07.09 -23 14 06.5 283.808778 23.239115 2.5443967 93.264217 -0.294128
1911-Dec-15 14:00 *m 17 27 18.15 -23 14 15.2 268.813581 23.237200 2.5444266 93.246031 -0.293557
1911-Dec-15 15:00 *m 17 27 29.20 -23 14 23.8 253.818874 23.235294 2.5444563 93.227850 -0.293003
1911-Dec-15 16:00 *m 17 27 40.26 -23 14 32.3 238.824637 23.233692 2.5444858 93.209672 -0.292465
1911-Dec-15 17:00 *m 17 27 51.32 -23 14 40.9 223.830819 23.232664 2.5445148 93.191498 -0.291942
1911-Dec-15 18:00 *m 17 28 02.39 -23 14 49.3 208.837341 23.232441 2.5445432 93.173327 -0.291431
1911-Dec-15 19:00 *m 17 28 13.45 -23 14 57.8 193.844101 23.233198 2.5445708 93.155157 -0.290928
1911-Dec-15 20:00 *m 17 28 24.51 -23 15 06.1 178.850979 23.235044 2.5445976 93.136987 -0.290431
1911-Dec-15 21:00 *m 17 28 35.57 -23 15 14.5 163.857850 23.238012 2.5446235 93.118815 -0.289934
1911-Dec-15 22:00 *m 17 28 46.63 -23 15 22.8 148.864588 23.242056 2.5446486 93.100639 -0.289434
1911-Dec-15 23:00 *m 17 28 57.70 -23 15 31.0 133.871076 23.247059 2.5446730 93.082458 -0.288927
1911-Dec-16 00:00 *m 17 29 08.76 -23 15 39.2 118.877216 23.252834 2.5446966 93.064270 -0.288409
It goes up and down, all right. But let’s be at 89° 59’.5 :
1911-Dec-15 00:00 *m 17 24 43.37 -23 12 09.4 118.857132 23.198595 2.5440446 93.500418 -0.301882
1911-Dec-15 01:00 *m 17 24 54.43 -23 12 18.7 103.862452 23.203202 2.5440713 93.482284 -0.301316
1911-Dec-15 02:00 *m 17 25 05.48 -23 12 28.0 88.867539 23.207932 2.5440978 93.464143 -0.300743
1911-Dec-15 03:00 *m 17 25 16.53 -23 12 37.2 73.872384 23.212637 2.5441242 93.445995 -0.300163
1911-Dec-15 04:00 *m 17 25 27.58 -23 12 46.3 58.876998 23.217172 2.5441506 93.427842 -0.299577
1911-Dec-15 05:00 *m 17 25 38.64 -23 12 55.4 43.881405 23.221399 2.5441771 93.409682 -0.298985
1911-Dec-15 06:00 *m 17 25 49.69 -23 13 04.5 28.885645 23.225204 2.5442038 93.391516 -0.298388
1911-Dec-15 07:00 *m 17 26 00.75 -23 13 13.5 13.889770 23.228499 2.5442308 93.373346 -0.297789
1911-Dec-15 08:00 *m 17 26 11.80 -23 13 22.4 358.893839 23.231229 2.5442581 93.355171 -0.297188
1911-Dec-15 09:00 *m 17 26 22.86 -23 13 31.3 343.897914 23.233378 2.5442856 93.336993 -0.296589
1911-Dec-15 10:00 *m 17 26 33.91 -23 13 40.2 328.902058 23.234969 2.5443134 93.318812 -0.295993
1911-Dec-15 11:00 *m 17 26 44.97 -23 13 49.0 313.906331 23.236060 2.5443415 93.300630 -0.295402
1911-Dec-15 12:00 *m 17 26 56.03 -23 13 57.8 298.910781 23.236744 2.5443698 93.282447 -0.294818
1911-Dec-15 13:00 *m 17 27 07.09 -23 14 06.5 283.915446 23.237141 2.5443982 93.264264 -0.294242
1911-Dec-15 14:00 *m 17 27 18.15 -23 14 15.2 268.920351 23.237387 2.5444266 93.246082 -0.293674
1911-Dec-15 15:00 *m 17 27 29.21 -23 14 23.8 253.925501 23.237631 2.5444549 93.227900 -0.293116
1911-Dec-15 16:00 *m 17 27 40.26 -23 14 32.3 238.930887 23.238019 2.5444830 93.209719 -0.292566
1911-Dec-15 17:00 *m 17 27 51.32 -23 14 40.9 223.936485 23.238686 2.5445108 93.191538 -0.292024
1911-Dec-15 18:00 *m 17 28 02.39 -23 14 49.3 208.942254 23.239748 2.5445383 93.173357 -0.291488
1911-Dec-15 19:00 *m 17 28 13.45 -23 14 57.8 193.948143 23.241293 2.5445653 93.155176 -0.290957
1911-Dec-15 20:00 *m 17 28 24.51 -23 15 06.1 178.954093 23.243376 2.5445919 93.136993 -0.290429
1911-Dec-15 21:00 *m 17 28 35.57 -23 15 14.5 163.960040 23.246013 2.5446180 93.118807 -0.289902
1911-Dec-15 22:00 *m 17 28 46.63 -23 15 22.8 148.965923 23.249182 2.5446437 93.100619 -0.289374
1911-Dec-15 23:00 *m 17 28 57.70 -23 15 31.0 133.971682 23.252823 2.5446689 93.082427 -0.288842
1911-Dec-16 00:00 *m 17 29 08.76 -23 15 39.2 118.977268 23.256845 2.5446938 93.064229 -0.288306
It looks like it is (barely) monotonically increasing.
Preliminary conclusion: if the sun continuously rises, you must be pretty close to the pole, but maybe not exactly (you could be up to half a mile away). If you observe oscillations, you did not make it within half a mile of the pole. On 15 December 1911, 60°E.
Latitude or longitude?
Note that this is because the ice moves, not an actual movement of the pole. It says so at the link, but they don’t emphasize it. If you missed that point, you might get the idea that the pole is actually moving in a straight line.
Longitude. Even when I stop to think about it, I still often get those two mixed up. And I think that when I made that post, I didn’t stop to think about it. Thanks for catching that.