# GQ as GD: Facts vs. opinions re: the afterlife and other unprovable stuff **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876 "2010-12-03T23:30:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/221 "2010-12-08T01:38:01Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Read the page I quoted from, he explains it better than I can. Although I think it speaks for itself - you are arguing from knowledge only of “the science of the day”, without any allowance that science will continue to advance, and that advance might lead to new information and understanding, exactly the way it has previously. I covered this in the OP…this IS the damn OP, for god’s sake! No, I’m arguing from logic, and the truth value of a logical proposition is not modified by the science of the day. So, to state it again, a spiritual afterlife is logically impossible because nothing can, by definition, exist but be completely intangible, yet the spirit described by everyone who believes in it is intangible. A physical afterlife is scientifically impossible, which as I’ve repeatedly noted is subject to change. No amount of science can make 1+1=3, can make X=notX, or anything else that is logically impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/222 "2010-12-08T01:46:59Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I disagree. > > I’m coming from possibility, you are coming from rigid certainty. I think the first one who has the responsibility to cite is the one making rigidly certain assertions. If you disagree, I’m open to an argument for your disagreement. You are coming from possibility? Possibility of _what_, exactly? Please describe this “soul” that you believe is possible, so that others can test to see if you are correct. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/223 "2010-12-08T02:15:36Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I know you didn’t ask me, but I’d tell that person that he’s high and should lie down. How do you know that I didn’t ask you? You might say, “There doesn’t need to be a reason for the cosmos to exist.” And I say, “What about \*you \*and _I_?” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/224 "2010-12-08T02:18:13Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > How do you know that I didn’t ask you? > You might say, “There doesn’t need to be a reason for the cosmos to exist.” > > And I say, “What about \*you \*and _I_?” Yeah, you seem to have a truckload of pseudo-intellectual questions. I don’t suppose you’ve come to any solid _conclusions_? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/225 "2010-12-08T02:24:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You are coming from possibility? Possibility of _what_, exactly? Please describe this “soul” that you believe is possible, so that others can test to see if you are correct. Are you saying you’re unable to live with uncertainty or mystery? That you won’t even consider the possibility of something, unless someone will describe or explain to you exactly what that something would be? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/226 "2010-12-08T02:28:42Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Are you saying you’re unable to live with uncertainty or mystery? That you won’t even consider the possibility of something, unless someone will describe or explain to you exactly what that something would be? Tell me something-If I tell you that the Heuermet Field determines which shoe you put on first when you get up, would you be willing to consider it possible? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/227 "2010-12-08T02:31:06Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > How do you know that I didn’t ask you? Because you quoted **Czarcasm**. > [@](#): > > You might say, “There doesn’t need to be a reason for the cosmos to exist.” I do in fact say that. > [@](#): > > And I say, “What about \*you \*and _I_?” What about us? We’re sacs of chemicals that can love. Sometimes supernovae produce sacks of chemicals that can love. What’s confusing you here? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/228 "2010-12-08T02:37:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because you quoted **Czarcasm**. So? I’ve quoted **Czarcasm** before. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/229 "2010-12-08T03:06:45Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I do in fact say that. I say that, too. Yet questions remain. What’s the reason for you and me? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t suppose you’ve come to any solid _conclusions_? Either the cosmos exists _or_ you and I exist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/230 "2010-12-08T03:10:41Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I say that, too. Yet questions remain. What’s the reason for you and me? Why do you think there has to be a reason? > [@](#): > > Either the cosmos exists _or_ you and I exist. All three exist. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/231 "2010-12-08T03:10:43Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I say that, too. Yet questions remain. What’s the reason for you and me? > > Either the cosmos exists _or_ you and I exist. That’s so…_heavy_, dude! ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/232 "2010-12-08T03:30:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > All three exist. How? ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/233 "2010-12-08T03:43:06Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > How? Are you really asking how we and the Universe exists at the same time? You realize most people believe both us and the Universe exists at the same time so why not just tell us what you’re getting at. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/234 "2010-12-08T04:03:10Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Are you really asking how we and the Universe exists at the same time? You realize most people believe both us and the Universe exists at the same time so why not just tell us what you’re getting at. Can all three, or any three, not exist? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/235 "2010-12-08T04:10:36Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > How? Huh? > [@](#): > > Can all three, or any three, not exist? Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/236 "2010-12-08T04:14:47Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Can all three, or any three, not exist? You know you’re just incoherent at this point, right? ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/237 "2010-12-08T04:19:37Z")
You said, “Either the cosmos exists _or_ you and I exist.” You realized that was a provocative statement yet didn’t explain what you meant by it. **Dio** replied “All three exist”, which is what most of us accept. You then ask “how” instead of explaining what you’re getting at and when I ask you to do that, you ask me another question. All the game playing going on in GD lately is getting really annoying. Just explain what “Either the cosmos exists _or_ you and I exist” means already and knock off the bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/238 "2010-12-08T04:36:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Sure. Please explain. (My question is for you. I know you don’t make attacks on any posters and you’ve been a good contributor to the OP) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/239 "2010-12-08T04:51:48Z")
I’m not sure what you expect me to explain. The universe could not exist by not existing. So could I, and so could you. There is no discernable reason that the universe _has_ to exist, and even less that we do. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/240 "2010-12-08T05:09:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yeah, you seem to have a truckload of pseudo-intellectual questions. > I don’t suppose you’ve come to any solid _conclusions_? Forgive me if I’m mistunderstanding, but I detect a sneer in this question, as though questions are somehow “less than” conclusions. If that’s your intended meaning, I’d like you to explain it, since I find it startling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876.md?page=13)