# GQ as GD: Facts vs. opinions re: the afterlife and other unprovable stuff **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876 "2010-12-03T23:30:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/161 "2010-12-07T07:54:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There is a difference between consciousness and memory, yes. Memory is a contributing factor to consciousness, just like sensory stimuli. So consciousness is memory and sensory stimuli? Could there be consciousness without memory? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/162 "2010-12-07T08:00:05Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > So consciousness is memory and sensory stimuli? Could there be consciousness without memory? IIRC there’s a name for that condition, caused by brain damage, but I can’t recall it. Although it’s only an assumption that they are still capable of consciousness, they act like it. The victim relentlessly confabulates for a time, making up a false past that changes from moment to moment apparently trying to fill the void. They eventually fall silent and passive if I (vaguely) recall correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/163 "2010-12-07T08:07:42Z")
Isn’t everyone born without memory? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/164 "2010-12-07T08:08:52Z")
That consciousness is an emergent property of the brain does mean it’s not transferable - that’s part of the definition of “property” (in this context). ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/165 "2010-12-07T08:14:46Z")
So everyone has the same consciousness? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/166 "2010-12-07T08:15:28Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > So consciousness is memory and sensory stimuli? Could there be consciousness without memory? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/167 "2010-12-07T08:16:31Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > So everyone has the same consciousness? No. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/168 "2010-12-07T08:50:41Z")
But isn’t everyone born without memory? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/169 "2010-12-07T09:16:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What would you like explained to you? What a silly and pointless question, for a host of reasons, the biggest being the fact that I have never seen you explain anything. Never. Doesn’t mean you haven’t, of course, but I’ve never seen it. You just declare things. Completely different. And you seriously need to stop using terms you don’t understand. not that you will, but you should. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/170 "2010-12-07T09:19:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That consciousness is an emergent property of the brain does mean it’s not transferable - that’s part of the definition of “property” (in this context). Exactly. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/171 "2010-12-07T09:20:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yeah, actually, it does. Sorry. Prove it. If what you say is true, then you can find a cite to back it up. And she was not providing ad hominem. She was making a logical inference–you are basing your claim on your own reasoning–a reasoning that has been shown to be faulty in the past. Therefore, logically, we cannot assume that your reasoning is valid. Back it up, or there’s no reason to agree with you. And, really, how does your absolute black-and-white morality allow you to make ad hominem attacks on her, but she can’t on you? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/172 "2010-12-07T10:45:55Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > So everyone has the same consciousness? No, the opposite - it will be as unique as the individual brain. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/173 "2010-12-07T14:06:11Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Prove it. If what you say is true, then you can find a cite to back it up. One thing follows from the other. If it is agreed that consciousness is a physical property of the brain, then it’s agreed that it dies with the brain. What exactly do you think you need proof of? Do you dispute that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain? Do you also dispute that you see with your eyes and hear with your ears? > [@](#): > > And she was not providing ad hominem. yes she was. > [@](#): > > And, really, how does your absolute black-and-white morality allow you to make ad hominem attacks on her, but she can’t on you? I have not made any attacks on her whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/174 "2010-12-07T14:09:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That consciousness is an emergent property of the brain does mean it’s not transferable - that’s part of the definition of “property” (in this context). I already said that perhaps consciousness could be “transferred” by technological means, but it does not and cannot occur by any natural means. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/175 "2010-12-07T14:50:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I already said that perhaps consciousness could be “transferred” by technological means, but it does not and cannot occur by any natural means. If you could build an identical brain to one that exists, and transfer the memories, then an identical consciousness would emerge. Strictly, the consciousness isn’t transfered, but the effect would be the same. I don’t know whether the brain would have to be physically identical or only functionally identical, though (assuming the two are in fact different). ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/176 "2010-12-07T15:16:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you could build an identical brain to one that exists, and transfer the memories, then an identical consciousness would emerge. If physicalism is true you wouldn’t have to transfer anything. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/177 "2010-12-07T16:08:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you could build an identical brain to one that exists, and transfer the memories, then an identical consciousness would emerge. Strictly, the consciousness isn’t transfered, but the effect would be the same. I don’t know whether the brain would have to be physically identical or only functionally identical, though (assuming the two are in fact different). Physicality informs function, so it’s essentially the same thing. I’m not entirely sure that identical memories alone would comprise an identical consciousness, though. The other physical elements would have to be the same as well (sensory input and other ongoing physical processes and circumstances). It might initially be very close, but then all the other variables would immediately begin to corrupt the original files into something else. This is something that does not occur naturally, of course, so it doesn’t cosntitute an argument for an “afterlife” as such, just for a theoretical technological transferance of biochemical information from the brain to another medium. This is not what is typically meant by an “afterlife,” and not something can or has occurred (or perhaps ever will occur) without technology. So far, no individual consciousness has ever survived brain death. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/178 "2010-12-07T16:10:10Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > If physicalism is true you wouldn’t have to transfer anything. Why wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/179 "2010-12-07T16:45:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why wouldn’t you? If the memories are physically part of the brain, an identical brain would necessarily already contain the memories. Your other post, I agree entirely with. This is an hypothetical eternal life, not an afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876/180 "2010-12-07T16:56:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If the memories are physically part of the brain, an identical brain would necessarily already contain the memories. Well, that’s true, I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gq-as-gd-facts-vs-opinions-re-the-afterlife-and-other-unprovable-stuff/562876.md?page=10)