# Grad School Ostracism **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 27, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521 "2009-04-27T17:18:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/21 "2009-04-28T00:52:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The Program Director made this mess so it’s his to fix. The problem is the program itself. The whole system of forcing people to work in teams is stupid and unfair and bound to result in situations like this. If that’s going to be a requirement, then teams should not be allowed to kick people out. I can’t see either value or fairness in making one’s grade dependent on the performance or the social acceptance of others. However – the fact that it’s an MBA program, not an academic-track program, is relevant. In the busines world, you are likely to be forced to work on project teams in conjunction with people you may actively dislike, or at least would not voluntarily associate with – if that’s a part of the idea behind the team structure for the MBA program, it makes a lot of sense. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/22 "2009-04-28T01:56:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The Program Director made this mess so it’s his to fix. The problem is the program itself. The whole system of forcing people to work in teams is stupid and unfair and bound to result in situations like this. If that’s going to be a requirement, then teams should not be allowed to kick people out. I can’t see either value or fairness in making one’s grade dependent on the performance or the social acceptance of others. If you can’t make people suspend their dislike of you long enough for school, then you don’t have the skills required of an MBA holder. This is a professional training program, not an academic one, and part of the skillset required is to work on teams without alienating all of the other members. I do agree that the director or dean needs to man up and kick the guy out instead of leaving him to flounder, but that’s as far as my sympathy extends. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/23 "2009-04-28T06:07:27Z")
Anecdote time. We lived through this exact same issue. It was while doing a Post Graduate Diploma (300 hour course only open to graduates) First two group projects went okay, but rumblings were heard about The Jerk. For the third, the whole class refused to work with him. As back ground: my wife and I attended the course together, we were in the same working group, and our group was stable throughout the course. No members changed, we got along with no issues. All the other groups changed fro project to project. We had “calss meetings” where the lecturer of that segment tried to talk sense to the class, followed by meetings with the (equivalent of) Dean. Everybody still refused to work with him. The meeting with the Dean actually turned out to be quite entertaining, after about 75 minutes of negotiations, accusations, pleas and promises, the student body started leaving the class one by one, until just the course supervisor and the ostracised student were left. Not sure of the eventual outcome…we never heard nor saw the guy again. I say - if he can’t work in a group environment, it is up to the school to work out a solution that does NOT involve forcing one of the groups to take him in. If that solution is compromising on the standards expected of him, allowing him a repeat with no penalty or allowing him to fail is up to them to decide. This would of course also impact on the reputation of the programme, their standards and future perceptions, setting a precedent etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/24 "2009-04-28T06:51:41Z")
Can you give examples of this “bad behavior”? There’s nothing more unsatisfying than all this hype being told he’s a “creepy asshole” and you wouldn’t be surprised if he turns out as a serial killing cannibal, yet not a single example of what you are talking about? Just saying he has “bad behavior” and everyone hates him? Come on, you can do better than that. ---
**Author:** ![Amber\_in\_Treasury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Amber\_in\_Treasury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amber_in_Treasury)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/25 "2009-04-28T08:08:28Z")
**Rigmarole** , I basically understand and agree. But I’m gonna take a WAG here: there might have been several incidents just adding up: unsolicited groping, a rude stare here, a chauvinistic or perv-y comment there. Not just one jerkish faux pas, but continual creepy/assholish behaviour on Paul’s part. But as I said, that’s just a wild-assed guess. So yes, **Sundrop** , would you mind elaborating? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/26 "2009-04-28T13:04:01Z")
> [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](#): > > Those programs also tend to have pretty good resources for people who want to improve their people skills (negotiation, conflict resolution, etc.) But if he doesn’t want to learn, let him fail. > > I do think he should have the option to obtain some coaching from the professor or program director if he asks for it. That’s probably better than he could hope for in real life. So what’s to be done? At what point do you divert him to resources to improve group-work skills in conjunction with the class, and where do you tell him he needs to retry next semester? It’s late April - I’m guessing he’s screwed at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/27 "2009-04-28T15:58:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Paul has slowly alienated everyone in his group, and in the class in general to the point no one is willing to work with him. IMO, he is weeding himself out by demonstrating an inability to work with/lead others. Multiple people have told him that he acts like a jerk, and he is convinced that he doesn’t need to change. As Voyager said, his inability to get along is demonstrating he isn’t really cut out to complete his MBA and manage people. Paul sounds like he not only doesn’t belong in an MBA class, but he doesn’t belong in any job where he’ll have to interact with people. It’s one thing to not be able to get along with one particular group of people. It’s quite another thing for someone to be told and counseled repeatedly about his behavior and he is resistant to the idea that _he_ needs to change. Social skills can be learned by most people who have at least normal intelligence. Paul probably does know how to interact with people, but he chooses not to do it. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/28 "2009-04-28T16:04:18Z")
I think it’s great that there’s a situation with a built-in disincentive to act like an asshole. I think a better-run universe would provide more such situations. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/29 "2009-04-28T16:17:35Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Paul sounds like he not only doesn’t belong in an MBA class, but he doesn’t belong in any job where he’ll have to interact with people. This program is for working professionals, right? Does it take substantial time away from normal working hours? It’s not unknown for managers to deal with someone who causes more problems than they’re worth to let them spend all the time they want in training classes, just to get them out of the way. Maybe that’s what Paul’s boss did? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/30 "2009-04-28T16:36:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > This program is for working professionals, right? Does it take substantial time away from normal working hours? > > It’s not unknown for managers to deal with someone who causes more problems than they’re worth to let them spend all the time they want in training classes, just to get them out of the way. Maybe that’s what Paul’s boss did? Heh. “You’re an asshole. If you don’t believe me, we’re paying to send you to take courses so that 30 new people can tell you the same thing.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/31 "2009-04-28T16:41:34Z")
It’s not only easier, it can be a lot cheaper than firing the guy. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/32 "2009-04-28T16:46:43Z")
So what’s up with this guy? Did he actually grab someone’s tit and key her car or has he taken the women-love-jerks-so-I’m-going-to-be-one douchebaggery so far he’s become a psychologically unstable caricture of a hedge fund manager? Is he a screamer? Openly insulting? I’m curious. ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/33 "2009-04-28T16:54:05Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > So what’s to be done? At what point do you divert him to resources to improve group-work skills in conjunction with the class, and where do you tell him he needs to retry next semester? It’s late April - I’m guessing he’s screwed at this point. I’m inclined to agree, but so are quite a few of the students in other courses just starting their term papers today, or realizing that without actually working some of the example problems all semester they are totally screwed for the quantitative final. I’m kind of assuming that some interventions have been offered to him already. The similar program I’m familiar with puts quite a bit of thought and structure into teaching effective teamwork. If the programs didn’t, they would be Junior High, Part II. So the professor / program director get to make the call on failing him, letting him retake the class, etc. according to the school’s policies and some professional judgment. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/34 "2009-04-28T17:54:56Z")
I’m totally unfamiliar with MBA programs, but what about how this influences the other students? It seems to me that you frequently have to work with people you find personally distasteful, and learning how to do so with aplomb would be pretty valuable. I mean, you generally can’t vote your co-managers out of the company, can you? I’d think the appropriate response would be dealing with it through your supervisors (or the professor/program director/dean, in this case). ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/35 "2009-04-28T18:07:56Z")
While Paul may be showing that he is unable to work well in a group and succeed in an MBA program (I am not doubting the OPs claims), what is interesting is that 30 other students are showing that they do not know how to manage and work with a difficult co-worker/employee and feel that ostracizing is an acceptable course of action in a “professional” environment. Which school is this again? Remind me never to go there! ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/36 "2009-04-28T18:12:05Z")
> [@luv2draw](#): > > Has it occurred to anyone that maybe this idiot is actually part of the program and maybe not even a student? No, because that would be ridiculous. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s not unknown for managers to deal with someone who causes more problems than they’re worth to let them spend all the time they want in training classes, just to get them out of the way. Maybe that’s what Paul’s boss did? I have never heard of this in my 15 years of working in the corporate world. Training costs money and it’s hard enough to get legitimate training for your people, let alone use training as a place to dump problem employees. And since they can’t be in training all the time, it doesn’t really solve the problem anyway. AND since this is an executive or part-time MBA program, presumably most classes are after work hours anyway. One of the most valuable experiences of an MBA program is working on project teams with your peers. Every class I had pretty much had at least one and often multiple group projects. It seems to me that if you can’t even manage to stay in a group, how can you possibly manage other people? You have to really be a jerk to get kicked out of every group though. The main reasons seem to be 1) being willfully offensive or argumentative on a constant basis, 2) not pulling your weight (and even then you REALLY need to not be pulling your weight). ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/37 "2009-04-28T18:19:58Z")
> [@Sundrop](#): > > This was tongue in cheek. A cannibal with someone’s tongue in his cheek? Someone needs to talk to a dean. ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/38 "2009-04-28T18:33:49Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > While Paul may be showing that he is unable to work well in a group and succeed in an MBA program (I am not doubting the OPs claims), what is interesting is that 30 other students are showing that they do not know how to manage and work with a difficult co-worker/employee and feel that ostracizing is an acceptable course of action in a “professional” environment. > > Which school is this again? Remind me never to go there! How many “professional” environments have you worked in? Ostracism and empire-building are pretty common in the professional world. In fact at just about every job I know of I could think of at least one manager or executive that was slowly having his power drained because he or she can’t get anything done, because no one will work with him/her. Oh, and I would so love to be in a program where you can kick out the asshole. Most of the time you are just stuck with them and have to work around them as best as possible, and then they take all the credit when you’re done. Sort of like real life… ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/39 "2009-04-28T18:47:13Z")
> [@crazyjoe](#): > > How many “professional” environments have you worked in? Ostracism and empire-building are pretty common in the professional world. In fact at just about every job I know of I could think of at least one manager or executive that was slowly having his power drained because he or she can’t get anything done, because no one will work with him/her. > > Oh, and I would so love to be in a program where you can kick out the asshole. Most of the time you are just stuck with them and have to work around them as best as possible, and then they take all the credit when you’re done. Sort of like real life… Oh, I’ve worked in a handful or so of professional environments, and I don’t really disagree with you. But I’ve also been in school a lot (working on my second undergrad) and a school project based “professional” environment tends to expect people to work in a very idealised, perfect-world manner to get things done. Which is why the MBA program allowing a student to get ostracized, allowing students to change groups and not becoming involved to help teach “ideal” conflict resolution seems odd to me. It seems that this is an opportunity to perhaps actually learn something useful, and that’s not happening. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/40 "2009-04-28T18:59:51Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > No, because that would be ridiculous. That isn’t an absolute deterrent, in the management world. > [@](#): > > I have never heard of this in my 15 years of working in the corporate world. Training costs money and it’s hard enough to get legitimate training for your people, let alone use training as a place to dump problem employees. When the manager has to justify the expense, sure. Not when it’s imposed upon him. It did happen, on a wide scale, at a previous employer of mine whose famous CEO got religion about the latest fad, and required every department to give up a certain number of people to become its high priests. The department heads, thinking it was just the latest fad and would blow over like the rest, sent their \*least \*valuable people. They never suspected that the CEO was a genuine convert, that the religion wasn’t going to blow over any time soon, and that this bunch of turkeys was really going to be anointed the company’s new leaders. I’ve never been a bit impressed by Six Sigma Black Belts ever since. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521.md?page=3)