# Grad School Ostracism **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 27, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521 "2009-04-27T17:18:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![luv2draw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/46a35a/32.png) [@luv2draw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/luv2draw)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/61 "2009-04-30T22:50:43Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think you’re probably right. > > People (like me) go to business school to become leaders in companies or start their own companies. We are people looking to be successful in life. The people on this board who complain about working extra hours, being bothered on their lunch break or even a lot of the social stuff like being bullied or figuring out how to talk to girls are as a general rule not the sort of people who go to business school. That is not to say we are all a bunch of hyper-competitive RedBull drinking assholes or even that we love work all the time (clearly I don’t), but we have certain goals and objectives and are therefore less likely to live passive lives of allowing things to just happen to us. > **luv2draw** - Understand that you don’t learn anything by just being thrown into a shitty, uncontrolled situation. What lessons are the students suppose to learn from having a plant in the class no one wants to work with? If it’s a marketing strategy or a corporate finance class, the students are there to learn marketing strategy or a corporate finance, not be distracted by a single jerk. It’s hard enough putting together a functional team of people who actually want to work with each other. There are other management classes where they teach you about teamwork or how to deal with difficult employees through various frameworks and scenarios. I come to this board for entertainment/a break; maybe that’s my mistake. IMHO you are just taking this all too seriously. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/62 "2009-05-01T16:52:00Z")
> [@luv2draw](#): > > I come to this board for entertainment/a break; maybe that’s my mistake. IMHO you are just taking this all too seriously. So do I but I was under the impression that we were having a serious, adult conversation here. Think of it as an opportunity to learn something new. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The Program Director made this mess so it’s his to fix. The problem is the program itself. The whole system of forcing people to work in teams is stupid and unfair and bound to result in situations like this. If that’s going to be a requirement, then teams should not be allowed to kick people out. I can’t see either value or fairness in making one’s grade dependent on the performance or the social acceptance of others. As H the S pointed out, the programs are designed to mimic the real business world. You can read all about finance and marketing on the web or in a text book on your own. What you can’t do on your own is work with a team of random people to solve some business problem. Your performance in the business world is often dependent on the social acceptance of others. Even if you are the boss, you still need to lead and motivate others and know when it’s time to lead and when it’s time to follow. Usually, we were just stuck with a Paul. If he was bad enough (like the one guy we had who did no work and plagarized his section of the project) we might go to the professor. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/63 "2009-05-01T17:05:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Usually, we were just stuck with a Paul. If he was bad enough (like the one guy we had who did no work and plagarized his section of the project) we might go to the professor. I had a similar Paul in a grad group. I made sure I inserted into my section all the citated quotes he was trying to plagarize in his section. When the question was brought up in a group meeting of, “Paul, why aren’t any of these quotes cited, or even in quotes?” he was dumbfounded that someone had discovered it. He never changed them, and we just quarantined his section when we turned it in. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Norse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/big_norse/32/9954_2.png) [@Big\_Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Norse)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/64 "2009-05-01T19:24:44Z")
> [@Sundrop](#): > > The answer is that he’s a creepy asshole. If ten years from now a news report showed Paul being arrested for serial killing and cannabilism, no one would say, “He was so quiet, I’d have never thought he could do something like that.” No, it would be, “No shit? Finally caught him did they?”. Nearly every woman in the class thinks he’s a sexist creep and are uncomfortable being around him. Hell, I think he’s a sexist creep. Most of the men in the class think he’s douche-tastic and want nothing to do with him. I was in a group in grad school that had such a creepy person in it (she was a woman, however). When she finally got to the point she was actually stalking one of the other members of the group, we told the professor we couldn’t work with her. We don’t know what he said, but we never saw her again - until a couple years later when I saw her on one of those true crime TV shows. She had gone home shortly after we kicked her out of the group and shot her landlord because he “was stalking her, poisoned her, and was working for ‘them’ (a group of kidnappers/assasins, which included Bill Clinton, who had kidnapped her daughter).” Not a serial killer, though, they caught her after her first kill. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/65 "2009-05-01T19:50:11Z")
Sounds like you might have been on her list, anyway. > [@msmith537](#): > > Usually, we were just stuck with a Paul. And that’s normal in the business world. You just accept that often you’ll have to drag a remora along with you, and you learn to do so with a little grace. Free-riding is more noticeable than the remora usually thinks, however. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Norse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/big_norse/32/9954_2.png) [@Big\_Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Norse)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/66 "2009-05-01T20:25:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Sounds like you might have been on her list, anyway. I will always wonder how close we all were to being taken out by a loonie. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/67 "2009-05-02T12:32:28Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I had a similar Paul in a grad group. I made sure I inserted into my section all the citated quotes he was trying to plagarize in his section. When the question was brought up in a group meeting of, “Paul, why aren’t any of these quotes cited, or even in quotes?” he was dumbfounded that someone had discovered it. He never changed them, and we just quarantined his section when we turned it in. We were a bit more direct than that. Basically it was a three person group and the assignment was to write a paper on some subject or another. So this one guy never really showed up and at the last minute gave us his “section” which was just some related article he directly coppied from the internet. He didn’t even bother reformatting it. So we basically just wrote his section for him and told the professor the situation. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And that’s normal in the business world. You just accept that often you’ll have to drag a remora along with you, and you learn to do so with a little grace. Free-riding is more noticeable than the remora usually thinks, however. Actually I don’t. You either perform for me or your off my team. I don’t care if you sit at your desk collecting a paycheck until the company figures out how worthless you are. Now the trick is dealing with some human lamprey who gets put into a position of authority. Then it’s time to find a new boss. ---
**Author:** ![luv2draw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/46a35a/32.png) [@luv2draw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/luv2draw)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/68 "2009-05-02T20:18:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So do I but I was under the impression that we were having a serious, adult conversation here. Think of it as an opportunity to learn something new. I’m not the one who can’t suspend my own beliefs for 5 minutes to consider that someone else’s opinion might be worth considering. I assumed people who are management material should be trained to think out of the box. … and you can have the last word if you care to. I won’t be back to this thread again. ---
**Author:** ![Sundrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@Sundrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sundrop)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/69 "2009-05-04T17:01:10Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Can you give examples of this “bad behavior”? There’s nothing more unsatisfying than all this hype being told he’s a “creepy asshole” and you wouldn’t be surprised if he turns out as a serial killing cannibal, yet not a single example of what you are talking about? Just saying he has “bad behavior” and everyone hates him? > > Come on, you can do better than that. I’ve been distracted with a final paper and preperation for a final exam, so apologies for the delayed response. A couple of specific examples: We have a caterer that comes in with light snacks before start of classes as they are in the evening. One of the other guys in class was helping her out by pushing a cart for her. Our man Paul says to the guy, in the hallway, “Hey man, you don’t need to do that, that’s women’s work.” He asked a black colleague what type of music she liked, and when she responded with something like pop music, he said, “Oh, come on, you know you like Dre, and Snoop and TuPac.” Another time, we were discussing the latest project in a class, and he asked what I got. I responded with, “An A.” And he says, “Well, aren’t you a big ole nerd.” And before I could tell him what a troglodyte he is, one of my teamates responds, “Paul, everyone in this class is a gigantic nerd. You don’t work full-time and go to grad school for your MBA full-time unless you’re pretty damn smart.” It’s stuff that I find (and I’m generally pretty thick skinned about this sort of stuff) to be racist, sexist, and just an out-and-out jerk. I think he’s trying to be funny or ironic with some of it, but he’s lacking in the charm department. ---
**Author:** ![Sundrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@Sundrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sundrop)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/70 "2009-05-04T17:30:43Z")
I hate to double-post, but some comments about the team-structure and why I don’t think the school should kick him out completely. In our program, the teams are a vital part of the experience. As several other posters have pointed out, this is to simulate what it is like for managers and executives. And there are lots of resources for conflict resolution; professors, administration and other training tools are all available. During orientation, at the beginning of the program, we spent an entire weekend with our teams and a group of consultants working on how to build strong teams. And I don’t mean bullshit like trust falls. We also completed personality inventories that were used to look for potential friction points in groups and given strategies for resolving that sort of thing. The teams are important not just for getting use to working in teams, but for the workload. The program is designed so that nearly every class has 1 or 2 projects that are a major part of your individual grades. And, at least in our class, the teams also act as a support structure. If you’re having difficulty with a subject, your first step is to go to your teammates. And while yes, MBA students are competitive, we also realize that helping out our teammates and classmates can help us out too. I can think of at least three classes where my grades would have been lower had I not helped out a teammate. A little more on workload. If X is the amount of work that one person, even a driven, intelligent person can do, then the program, thanks to the project is probably X + .1X amount of work. Theoreticaly, one person could do it all themselves, it is just going to be supremely difficult to do so. The director, during recruiting events emphasizes that the overload is on purpose so that you learn to properly delegate, and how to absorb data from somone else doing the scutwork, while also being able to transmit data from scutwork you’ve done yourself. The teams work partly because you learn to trust your teammates, that when they give their word, they’ll follow through, and that they aren’t going to fuck you over. Teams aren’t always rainbows and sugarcubes. You have conflicts, and you have personality differences. But you learn to work those out, which requires everyone on the team be willing to be flexible and making an effort. Paul, however, is not making that effort. His team tried to get him to change, the administrators have tried to get him to change. The program director confront him with some of his behaviors, explaining that he’s probably having trouble finding a group that will accept him because of how uncomfortable he makes many of the women in the class. His response was that, ‘Acting like that gets me lots of women. Women like that.’. So they are left with few options; kick him out, let him try to swim on his own, or try to force him into a group. Forcing him into a group won’t work. He could for example, but assigned to group two, but we would not have to involve him in the work on any group projects. And when it came time to hand it in, since he did none of the work, the honor code would prevent the prof. from adding his name to the deliverable. They could kick him out, yes. But his grades so far meet the standards of the program, and while he’s done douchey things, he hasn’t stepped over the line. No keying someone’s car or grabbing a woman’s breast as someone asked upthread. So that leaves letting him sink or swim on his own. If he’s willing to pay 10 grand for next semester to try and go it alone, that’s his call. Hell, maybe during the two week break between this semester and next he’ll do some serious self-reflection, have a Road to Damascus moment, and come back a whole new Paul and earn a spot on a team. It’s possible. Not likely, but possible. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/71 "2009-05-05T05:21:28Z")
> [@Sundrop](#): > > (snip) So, one would think, “Poor Paul, why won’t anyone take him?” The answer is that he’s a creepy asshole. If ten years from now a news report showed Paul being arrested for serial killing and cannabilism, no one would say, “He was so quiet, I’d have never thought he could do something like that.” No, it would be, “No shit? Finally caught him did they?”. Nearly every woman in the class thinks he’s a sexist creep and are uncomfortable being around him. Hell, I think he’s a sexist creep. Most of the men in the class think he’s douche-tastic and want nothing to do with him. Paul needs to switch to the English program. I’m two weeks and a thesis defense away from getting my MA in English. Paul would fit right in with us. We’re all sexist creeps, even the women. Especially the women. Here’s a typical joke told by women in the English graduate program: “What has a penis and no fucking brains at all? A man.” (Imagine hysterical laughter at this point.) Yep, Paul would fight right in with us. Seriously, dude, graduate school is the ultimate Darwinian environment. Paul is fucked. Too bad. Move on. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/72 "2009-05-05T15:25:56Z")
Oh, did I or did I not call it on his belief that acting like a douche scores him women? I’m thinking Insecure + a misreading of a Self-Help Book gone terribly awry. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/73 "2009-05-05T15:44:03Z")
Or maybe acting like a douche really does score him women (just not the sort of women that any non-douche would want to be involved with). ---
**Author:** ![Sundrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@Sundrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sundrop)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/74 "2009-05-05T16:19:37Z")
> [@anu-la1979](#): > > Oh, did I or did I not call it on his belief that acting like a douche scores him women? I’m thinking Insecure + a misreading of a Self-Help Book gone terribly awry. You called it. Though I think ultrafilter is right as well. I’m sure this particular brand of machismo gone awry does draw a certain type of women. I am equally sure that it is not a set of women with a large overlap with the type of woman who pursues an MBA. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/75 "2009-05-05T16:55:33Z")
If that is the case, then you have to conclude that Paul doesn’t understand the difference between closing time at a single’s bar and a professional situation. I somehow don’t see him going very far even if he does get an MBA. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/76 "2009-05-05T17:18:03Z")
Hmm. A case of Just Doesn’t Get It? My impression is that social skills and people management are a big part of being a boss. That’s one reason I never, ever wanted to be one. I have had enough difficulty learning to be social in my private life. How old is this Paul? ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/77 "2009-05-05T19:11:44Z")
> [@Bolt\_the\_Nut](#): > > MBA students are notoriously competitive, and the one group taking in the disruptive student (whether willingly or not) will be at a significant disadvantage versus the other groups. Given that performance in most programs can have a significant impact on future employment prospects, it is perfectly rational for each student to not want the disrupter in their group. The students are simply trying to avoid being placed at a competitive disadvantage - a display of solid business acumen. As harsh as it may sound, I would be more concerned were a group to willingly accept him. Exactly what I was thinking. > [@runcible\_spoon](#): > > I’m not really used to that sort of highly competitive school environment, which biases my view), but if it’s not teaching them a valuable skill which it could (i.e., how to deal with annoying people you can’t get rid of and/or how to communicate this kind of situation to a manager) then that’s a shame. One important skill that a business person has to learn is how to deal with problems efficiently. These teams had the option to kick Paul off their teams and they took it. They made a sound decision given their available resources. Besides, I’m sure that there are lots of “annoying people” in the program. They’re still on teams because they have something of value to contribute and they’re not totally disgusting. This all reminds me of something that happened when I was an undergrad. I was in a literature class with this girl, excuse me, this woman, Keisha. She was dramatic and haughty and thought she was brilliant and showed it in every class. Her comments in class and her body language clearly demonstrated that she felt that she was annoyed at having to associate with a bunch of peons. And that included the professor! She refused to talk to any of her classmates, except she would occasionally deign to honor another black student with a word or two. We tried to be friendly to her the first couple of days, but we quickly learned not to bother. I ran into her at an unrelated activity and approached her with “Hi, we’re in the same literat…” I didn’t get to finish before she looked down her nose at me, tossed her head and walked away. Then one day, the professor wanted us to pair up for an assignment. We all quickly found partners, and she was left looking around frantically. Nobody in the class, black, white, or purple wanted anything to do with her. So she got angry and accused us all of racism. I held my tongue, but what I really wanted to say was “We’re not racists. You’re just a bitch.” ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/78 "2009-05-05T19:26:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Paul, however, is not making that effort. His team tried to get him to change, the administrators have tried to get him to change. The program director confront him with some of his behaviors, explaining that he’s probably having trouble finding a group that will accept him because of how uncomfortable he makes many of the women in the class. His response was that, ‘Acting like that gets me lots of women. Women like that.’. Obviously, Paul prefers “getting lots of women” to succeeding in his classwork. I think that the program director was correct in trying to counsel Paul. And now that Paul has made it clear just where his priorities are, then the director and everyone else can quit offering assistance with a clear concience. Paul knows that his behavior is holding him back academically, but he doesn’t see a compelling reason to change. And he won’t, until he gets flunked out of the program. ---
**Author:** ![Sundrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@Sundrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sundrop)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/79 "2009-05-05T19:31:13Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Hmm. A case of Just Doesn’t Get It? My impression is that social skills and people management are a big part of being a boss. That’s one reason I never, ever wanted to be one. I have had enough difficulty learning to be social in my private life. How old is this Paul? Late 20s I believe. I don’t know for certain. He’s apparently in the research wing of the university’s hospital and good at the job. So I’m going to guess the guy isn’t stupid. He may just be a lab rat best suited to doing research things in a bio lab, but not interacting with people, or Og forbid, trying to lead or manage them. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521/80 "2009-05-06T02:23:01Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > If that is the case, then you have to conclude that Paul doesn’t understand the difference between closing time at a single’s bar and a professional situation. I somehow don’t see him going very far even if he does get an MBA. Riiiight. Because there are hardly any sexist d-bag MBAs in investment banks, consulting firms, or hedge funds. 😃 **Sundrop** , out of curiousity, how is this MBA program rated? You don’t need to tell me the actual school, but I’m just curious as to the relative quality of the program. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grad-school-ostracism/494521.md?page=5)