# Grading criteria of our daughter's HS teacher. Unfair? (Need answer fast.) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 2, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488 "2015-06-02T23:24:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/41 "2015-06-03T13:48:26Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If that is the case, do you want her to get a reputation as the one who raises an unholy stink over something that matters little in the long term? Maybe some future potential employer or client may remember her name and decide that it’s safer not to associate with her. How is a future employer going to know that her dad complained about her Yearbook grade? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/42 "2015-06-03T14:02:10Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > A student’s GPA should not be determined by the actions of others, such as choosing whether or not to buy a yearbook. It should only be determined by the student’s own actions (or lack thereof). Tell that to all my teachers and professors that assigned group projects. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/43 "2015-06-03T14:02:41Z")
Although I think this is an insane way to give grades, am I understanding correctly that the C- minus is only for one quarter of the year? What will her final grade be for the course when factored against the rest of the her grade in that class? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/44 "2015-06-03T14:03:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I just want to be completely clear: > > 1. The grade was based on actual sales, not documented sales attempts, right? > 2. There was no list of prospects for ad sales, right? That is, she wasn’t given folks who’d bought ads in the past and who could be relied on to buy ads going forward, given a phone call? > 3. There was no alternate assignment, right? > > If I’m misunderstanding any of the above, this isn’t quite as egregious. It’s still pretty bad, but if sales attempts are allowed to count, if prospects are given, or if there are alternate assignments, it’s just shitty, not insane. This. For #2, I could see it as “not quite fair, but close enough to fair that I probably wouldn’t protest _much_” if there were, say, 50 companies that have consistently bought ad space in the yearbook for the past ten years, and each student is assigned five of them and expected to sell to at least 3 of them to get an “A” for the “selling” assignment. E.g. “Suzie, you take Joe’s Plumbing, Valley Honda, Johnson and Stevens Attorneys, CompuGlobalHyperMegaNet, and Corner Gas. Cathy967, you take Northside Buick, Tax Pros Accounting Help of Glen Valley, Aunt Molly’s Irish Pub, Spacely Sprockets, and SuperQuality Drug Pharmacy…” You could even loop in #1 and provide at least partial credit for a documented sales attempt that displays proper selling technique (according to the curriculum as given in class). E.g. a mediocre attempt to sell that at least was an attempt could get a C, while a well structured sales call that displays all of the techniques, phraseology, politeness protocols, etc. that was taught in class could get an A even though the target did not, in fact, decide to buy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/45 "2015-06-03T14:07:52Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Has it occurred to you that other parents may have driven their kids around to sell, and the no DL excuse is really going to rub them the wrong way? If the parents of other kids drove those kids around, I’m fine with the teacher giving those parents an A in his class the next time they take it. But a child’s grade should never depend on a parent’s work. That’s extremely unethical and disadvantages lots of kids unfairly. > [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > It is a good lesson for high school kids, because a lot of college classes have whatever grading criteria laid out in the syllabus and kids don’t read it until it’s too late. > > However, I’d question how much they were informed of the grading criteria beforehand. And also how the teacher presented the criteria. If the teacher presented it like it’s not a big deal and everyone should be able to sell enough books and ads to make an A, the daughter might not have thought about how it would be a big deal for her. If the grading criteria were fair, I’d agree with you: this would make a big difference. If, for example, she were given a list of businesses to call, and she didn’t call the businesses, and the syllabus made it clear that making those calls was part of the classwork, you’d totally be right. But given the unfairness of the criteria, it’s irrelevant whether the unfairness were announced in advance. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/46 "2015-06-03T14:19:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How is a future employer going to know that her dad complained about her Yearbook grade? 😕 Because it’s going to be on her Permanent Record \. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/47 "2015-06-03T14:30:33Z")
Stunningly, mind-wobblingly wrong. So very wrong it’s difficult to understand why there is a need to argue against it. This is like grading a statistics class on how much money students can win at a casino, an English class on getting a book published, a history class based on the students participation in the American Revolution. It is just absurd and beyond reason to base a student’s grades on sales. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/48 "2015-06-03T14:34:37Z")
Those would be fucking awesome, though. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/49 "2015-06-03T14:38:09Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Stunningly, mind-wobblingly wrong. So very wrong it’s difficult to understand why there is a need to argue against it. This is like grading a statistics class on how much money students can win at a casino, an English class on getting a book published, a history class based on the students participation in the American Revolution. It is just absurd and beyond reason to base a student’s grades on sales. Well Bill and Ted passed history by bringing in Napolean, Lincoln, and Socrates. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/50 "2015-06-03T14:47:48Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > One of her classes this year at school is “Yearbook.” Being the excellent artist she is, she got a “A” in each of the first three quarters. > > I feel _ **really** _ bad for her. I know she worked extremely hard in the Yearbook class, and her work is outstanding. But she doesn’t have any talent at selling stuff, plus not having a DL makes it very difficult. > > Yesterday I emailed her teacher about it. He wrote back and said he would change her grade (for this quarter) from an F to a C-. I rather think the criteria is unreasonable, especially with respect to assigning so much weight to sales, however I’m going to play a bit of devil’s advocate in the next bit of my post. [Devil’s Advocate] Net, your daughter is combining 3 A’s with a C-, for an average grade of B/B+. Why? Because she has no talent for selling stuff. She worked hard, but with no talent in that area of the work, her grade suffered. Another student may have worked equally as hard in the prior quarters, but not being the excellent artist your daughter is, not having talent in that area of the work, their grade would have suffered as well. Would we consider that unfair? There is a place for giving credit for effort, and a place for giving credit for results. Are sales results a valid thing to give credit for? Well, in the real world, sales results are the ONLY thing you get credit for. If your company doesn’t sell it’s product, it doesn’t matter how hard you tried, your company is a failure. If the Yearbook is well crafted but doesn’t sell, it’s a failure. [/Devil’s Advocate] Side question, did this teacher actually teach anything about sales? Was there a curriculum assigned to instruct the students on sales techniques? Or, were they simply told “Go sell this stuff, or I’m going to flunk your asses.” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/51 "2015-06-03T14:48:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If the grading criteria were fair, I’d agree with you: this would make a big difference. If, for example, she were given a list of businesses to call, and she didn’t call the businesses, and the syllabus made it clear that making those calls was part of the classwork, you’d totally be right. > > But given the unfairness of the criteria, it’s irrelevant whether the unfairness were announced in advance. I agree that the criteria is unfair, and should be changed, and that the teacher and principal should be talked to no matter what. But the stink I would raise would be much bigger if the grading was sprung on them without warning. Also, it would probably affect how the conversation goes with the principal and teacher if there was warning and if it hasn’t been a big deal with other kids before. So if I was the parent, I would want to know from my daughter if it was in the syllabus, and how the teacher talked about it, and if she had heard other kids talking about the grading and saying it was difficult or unfair. I would make it clear that I’m not blaming her in any way, it’s an unfair grading system, but it would help to know when I have the talk with the principal and teacher, because I’m guessing they’ll probably bring it up. But I’m not a teacher or parent so I haven’t had to have those conversations, so I don’t really know how it would go. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/52 "2015-06-03T14:53:34Z")
A terrible idea on the teacher’s part. I’m wondering if the Powers That Be are insisting the teacher make sure a certain number of books are sold. Reminds me of my high school’s vice principal. He was the adviser for our class, and lectured us on how we were to demonstrate that we were awesome. Was it by getting great grades? Volunteering in the community? Winning sports championships? Not giving our teachers a hard time? Why, no. We were to sell more merchandise than any other class. Profits for the sales would pay for students to go on the class trip to the Jersey Shore if they couldn’t afford it otherwise. The merchandise was cruddy looking lucite Christmas tree ornaments. Many of the kids in our class were Hindu or Jewish, by the way. He hit the roof when we only sold a few. Then one student (not me) raised her hand. “I can’t go on the trip because my parents won’t let me. Why should I work to help others do something I can’t?” It was the only time that guy didn’t know what to say. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/53 "2015-06-03T16:47:06Z")
Success in the real world is way, way, way more tied to salesmanship than actual ability or talent. Someone who’s good at nothing but shaking hands is going to go farther than someone who is good at everything but shaking hands. At what point did it become clear that this is the skill the last-quarter grade would be based on? If she was blindsided, that is indeed terribly unfair, but if she knew from day one that she’d need to do this, she should have either have dropped the class or prepared to buckle down. Particularly if, as **LHoD** suggested, she had prospects handed to her or she gets at least partial credit for attempts. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/54 "2015-06-03T16:55:10Z")
I agree that this is a completely inappropriate way to grade a student. That said, I’m a little confused. Did Cathy know of the grading criteria before the grades came out? If so, why weren’t the concerns addressed then? Maybe I missed something; if so, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/55 "2015-06-03T17:09:34Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I rather think the criteria is unreasonable, especially with respect to assigning so much weight to sales, however I’m going to play a bit of devil’s advocate in the next bit of my post. > > [Devil’s Advocate] > Net, your daughter is combining 3 A’s with a C-, for an average grade of B/B+. Why? Because she has no talent for selling stuff. She worked hard, but with no talent in that area of the work, her grade suffered. > > Another student may have worked equally as hard in the prior quarters, but not being the excellent artist your daughter is, not having talent in that area of the work, their grade would have suffered as well. Would we consider that unfair? > > There is a place for giving credit for effort, and a place for giving credit for results. > > Are sales results a valid thing to give credit for? Well, in the real world, sales results are the ONLY thing you get credit for. If your company doesn’t sell it’s product, it doesn’t matter how hard you tried, your company is a failure. If the Yearbook is well crafted but doesn’t sell, it’s a failure… But the problem is that business and academia aren’t the same thing. This sort of attitude (go to school to learn job skills) is a major reason for exploding student loans and a proliferation of expensive for-profit schools with low standards. Academic programs are about learning and scholarship. If you want to learn to be a great salesman, sign on as an apprentice with a car dealership or something. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/56 "2015-06-03T17:11:02Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > A terrible idea on the teacher’s part. I’m wondering if the Powers That Be are insisting the teacher make sure a certain number of books are sold. Could be the school district is thinking of cancelling the yearbooks due to low sales. Cancelling the yearbooks may mean that the teacher either has to go teach classes he is entirely not interested in or he gets laid off. Either way, he may be taking desperate measures to save his own skin and screw the kids if it doesn’t work for him. Doesn’t mean it’s ok for the teacher. I do think teaching salesmanship is a good skill, I don’t think that the dollar amount sold is an appropriate way to grade a student. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/57 "2015-06-03T17:16:47Z")
When my kid was in school I found it distasteful how much pressure was put on students to sell things. You know the commercial companies involved in selling $10 bags of popcorn were making a great profit with the permission of school administration and a student army. Now _grades_ are dependent on selling ads and yearbooks? I found that highly unethical. Sales is usually an intrinsically unreliable venture. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/58 "2015-06-03T17:22:42Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > This sort of attitude (go to school to learn job skills) is a major reason for exploding student loans and a proliferation of expensive for-profit schools with low standards. Maybe if students graduated from school with some worthwhile skills, they wouldn’t need to borrow money to attend a for profit school. Anyway, without evidence that this teacher was actually teaching these skills, it’s a bit beside the point. At a minimum, you grade on what you teach. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/59 "2015-06-03T17:31:15Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Our daughter ([Cathy967](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php)) is 17 years old. She is a junior in high school. > > Catherine is an [extremely talented artist](http://cacartanddesign.weebly.com/) in both fine art and graphic design. She has won numerous awards and has taken private art lessons for many years. She plans on majoring in Graphic Design in college. > > One of her classes this year at school is “Yearbook.” Being the excellent artist she is, she got a “A” in each of the first three quarters. > > It is now the end of the fourth quarter. And her grade thus far for this quarter is… an **F**. :eek: > > According to the teacher’s grading criteria, a student’s grade for the fourth quarter is heavily dependent on two things: 1) The number of ads they sell, and 2) the number of yearbooks they sell. > > Catherine did poorly in each of these. For starters, we live in a very rural area, and (unlike each of the other students in class) she doesn’t have a driver’s license. This makes it very difficult for her to sell ads and yearbooks to the public. She at least tried to sell some yearbooks to fellow students, but at $70 a pop she was unsuccessful at selling any. > > I feel _ **really** _ bad for her. I know she worked extremely hard in the Yearbook class, and her work is outstanding. But she doesn’t have any talent at selling stuff, plus not having a DL makes it very difficult. > > Yesterday I emailed her teacher about it. He wrote back and said he would change her grade (for this quarter) from an F to a C-. > > What is your opinion on this? To be honest this is pissing me off. I feel like calling the principal, school board, etc. and making a bunch of noise about it. I guess it just pisses me off that a student’s grade is dependent on how much stuff they sell. I suggest you take a look at the school’s grading policies (probably on their website) - this teacher’s methods may very well be against the school’s explicit policy on grading/evaluation. ---
**Author:** ![Lowdown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Lowdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lowdown)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/60 "2015-06-03T18:50:12Z")
I think it’s absurd, and if it were my kid I’d be livid…buuuuuuuut…the time for complaining about it is the moment requirements are known, not _after_ you try and get the F. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488.md?page=4)