# Grading criteria of our daughter's HS teacher. Unfair? (Need answer fast.) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 2, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488 "2015-06-02T23:24:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/141 "2015-06-05T07:29:26Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Clear expectations of unethical behavior do not make what was wrong suddenly become right. > > I really hope \*\*Crafter \*\*recorded the conversations. Why is it “unethical”? If the purpose of the class is to provide real world experience in selling, then it’s perfectly legitimate IMHO. If Yearbook class is just meant to be a place where a bunch of kids with cameras can do arts and crafts, then maybe not. Did the OP consider this unethical before his daughter received an F? Although I don’t understand who buys yearbooks if they aren’t students. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/142 "2015-06-05T09:55:57Z")
Real world experience in selling ads as part of a “publishing” curriculum is a keen idea. > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I asked him, “What if a student offers a bunch of free ads to businesses, and pays the fee out of his/her own pocket?” He said he wouldn’t have a problem with it. This shit - is not. It’s purchasing a grade. Ad sales curriculum should involve identifying sales regions, setting quotas, you know, learning how to sell. Clearly this is just a sad free-for-all where inexperienced kids are told “go sell shit” and “your grade depends on it” with no instruction or learning involved. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/143 "2015-06-05T10:48:18Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I really hope \*\*Crafter \*\*recorded the conversations. I did. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/144 "2015-06-05T10:54:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It could violate the [Ohio Code of Professional Conduct for Educators](http://education.ohio.gov/getattachment/Topics/Teaching/Educator-Conduct/Licensure-Code-of-Professional-Conduct-for-Ohio-Ed/Licensure-COPC-for-Ohio-Educators_color.pdf.aspx). > > Unbecoming conduct includes “soliciting students . . . to purchase . . . supplies . . . that financially benefit the educator without notifying the superintendent.” That might, if there are additional facts, apply. There’s also the clause that “Educators needs to ensure that decisions made about students . . . are not negatively influenced by the socioeconomic status of parents,” and I think this could easily be in violation of that. Thanks for looking this up. Yesterday Catherine said there was a student in the class who did virtually nothing on the yearbook this quarter. But she _sold_ three yearbooks right away, and received an A. Catherine worked her ass off on the yearbook, and spent countless hours at home (including weekends) using Photoshop. But she’s not well-connected (she has very few friends at school) nor wealthy, and didn’t sell any yearbooks. This shit is really pissing me off. Next stop: the superintendent and the school board. ---
**Author:** ![Feint\_of\_Spades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f08c70/32.png) [@Feint\_of\_Spades](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feint_of_Spades)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/145 "2015-06-05T11:36:13Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Thanks for looking this up. > > Yesterday Catherine said there was a student in the class who did virtually nothing on the yearbook this quarter. But she _sold_ three yearbooks right away, and received an A. Catherine worked her ass off on the yearbook, and spent countless hours at home (including weekends) using Photoshop. But she’s not well-connected (she has very few friends at school) nor wealthy, and didn’t sell any yearbooks. > > This shit is really pissing me off. > > Next stop: the superintendent and the school board. Go get 'em. This is total garbage and someone needs to fix it. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/146 "2015-06-05T12:07:40Z")
I also think you should take up the cause of the other student your daughter mentioned who did not get his/her grade raised. Maybe your daughter just needs to tell that student what happened to her. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/147 "2015-06-05T12:28:14Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Next stop: the superintendent and the school board. Your daughter will remember this (in a good way). When my daughter was your kid’s age she got a disturbing-the-peace citation that was total bullshit. Instead of paying the fine, I got a lawyer-friend to champion her cause. We won, the cop appologized, and she learned about how courtrooms work. Ten years later she still tells the story and I sound way cooler than I was.😉 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/148 "2015-06-05T12:37:16Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > I also think you should take up the cause of the other student your daughter mentioned who did not get his/her grade raised. Maybe your daughter just needs to tell that student what happened to her. If she’s still going to be going to that school that wouldn’t be the best way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/149 "2015-06-05T12:38:16Z")
I would be highly tempted to short-circuit the slow, ass-covering response of school administration by mentioning in my communication(s) with administrators just how juicy a story this would be for local media. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/150 "2015-06-05T12:44:20Z")
Just out of interest [Student journalist questions ad sales for credit](http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/oct/30/student-journalist-questions-ad-sales-credit/). > [@](#): > > A course requirement that called for students to earn grades on commission — by selling ads or subscriptions for the school newspaper — has raised concern among some student journalists and parents at Mt. Carmel High School. > > Each $1 a student brought in would be worth 1 point toward a 200-point chunk of the student’s final grade, according to a letter before the start of the school year outlining the program. > [@](#): > > After the start of school, Calver amended the assignment to make fundraising worth only 100 points, and gave students alternative ways to earn points, Kastner said, including attending fundraising events and attempting to sell advertisements — whether the sales were successful or not. > > “Learning to sell ads is an assignment for the class because advertising is a part of journalism,” Kastner said. “They (students) still get credit if they make phone calls or send emails even if they don’t sell any (ads).” > > “In general, students did get points for ad sales, but they also got credit for making the attempt even if they didn’t sell ads,” Kastner said. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/151 "2015-06-05T13:27:45Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Why is it “unethical”? If the purpose of the class is to provide real world experience in selling, then it’s perfectly legitimate IMHO. If Yearbook class is just meant to be a place where a bunch of kids with cameras can do arts and crafts, then maybe not. This practice is unethical because grades should be based on things that are within the student’s control. The grading system should not reward the affluent over the non-affluent. Grades should not be able to be purchased. The class should be about learning a skill or gaining knowledge. The grade should reflect how well the student performed at accomplishing those goals. Using sales is a poor way to gauge those aspects for high school students. This is all just the concept here, based on the fact pattern that Crafter lays out the practice actually being engaged in is much worse. I did find this newspaper article[from 2000 from a local paper, the Star News.](https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1454&dat=20001008&id=CLtOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=bx8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=3955,2249840&hl=en) The superintendent of a Guildford County school is quoted as saying the practice is inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/152 "2015-06-05T14:34:31Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I was also thinking - the school may have received complaints in the past - I wonder if there is anything discoverable that they would have known this is bad behavior. Could have grounds for a \*42 U.S. Code § 1983 \* suit. That hurdle is probably too high, but it could be a legit threat. Like I said, maybe they’ll pay for her college. Challenging a grade in court is really, _really_ difficult. The theory is usually an equal protection violation and (absent some racial or gender bias claim) the grade assignment gets rational basis review. In practice, it’s essentially an impossible claim to win on. Courts are understandably reluctant to second-guess a grade assignment. On the other hand, I find it difficult to believe that a public school district does not prohibit the assignment of grades based on financial considerations (particularly given the admission that a student could buy ads himself to get an A.) The analysis is a bit different if a school system fails to follow its own procedures, though I expect there is a grievance process that has to be followed under Ohio law. ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/153 "2015-06-05T15:38:16Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Your daughter will remember this (in a good way). When my daughter was your kid’s age she got a disturbing-the-peace citation that was total bullshit. Instead of paying the fine, I got a lawyer-friend to champion her cause. We won, the cop appologized, and she learned about how courtrooms work. > > Ten years later she still tells the story and I sound way cooler than I was.😉 I applaud what you did, and what **Crafter\_Man** is doing. I wish all parents would be advocates for their kids when it’s called for. Please keep us updated on this **Crafter\_Man**. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/154 "2015-06-05T15:39:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Challenging a grade in court is really, _really_ difficult. The theory is usually an equal protection violation and (absent some racial or gender bias claim) the grade assignment gets rational basis review. In practice, it’s essentially an impossible claim to win on. Courts are understandably reluctant to second-guess a grade assignment. > > On the other hand, I find it difficult to believe that a public school district does not prohibit the assignment of grades based on financial considerations (particularly given the admission that a student could buy ads himself to get an A.) The analysis is a bit different if a school system fails to follow its own procedures, though I expect there is a grievance process that has to be followed under Ohio law. I was thinking more along the lines of a due process claim rather than equal protection. I concede both would be exceedingly difficult to prevail. Best case scenario is the school settles. I think the changing grades and using different metrics for different students opens up the school to claims of arbitrariness which could be actionable. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/155 "2015-06-05T15:50:39Z")
I was thinking about this earlier. Crafterman, do you have a clear end-game? I’m not sure on what it is, although there are several possibilities: 1. Your daughter gets an A in the class. This one is probably achievable, given the weaseliness of admin so far; but I’m not sure it is where you’re going. 2. The teacher gets fired/reprimanded. This is a really tough endgame, due to HR laws/policies. If you demand punishment for the teacher, you’ll almost certainly not be satisfied. Even if they punish the teacher, they’re unlikely to tell you that. 3. The school pays you thousands of dollars. I know you’ve not suggested that, but others have. I think that’s a ridiculous and ridiculously unlikely outcome, but I’ve been wrong before. It’s certainly not, IMO, a good outcome. 4. The teacher gets arrested. Nope. 5. The grading policies get changed. This, I think, is a reasonable end-game, and one you could certainly hope for. As the code of professional conduct includes the line about not discriminating based on socioeconomic status, you can ask the school board to adopt a policy that ensures no child’s grades will suffer due to an inability to purchase school supplies or otherwise pay for an aspect of his or her education. I suspect such policies exist in some districts; I’m not sure how to look them up, however. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/156 "2015-06-05T16:05:53Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I was thinking more along the lines of a due process claim rather than equal protection. I concede both would be exceedingly difficult to prevail. Best case scenario is the school settles. I think the changing grades and using different metrics for different students opens up the school to claims of arbitrariness which could be actionable. In a substantive due process claim the standard of review will still be rational basis. And while I agree that this grading scheme is stupid, the problem here is that that the original grade appears to have been justified under the announced grading scheme. We are effectively calling for the student to be awarded an even _more_ capricious grade, though one that is _subjectively_ justified. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/157 "2015-06-05T19:05:53Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I did find this newspaper article[from 2000 from a local paper, the Star News.](https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1454&dat=20001008&id=CLtOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=bx8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=3955,2249840&hl=en) The superintendent of a Guildford County school is quoted as saying the practice is inappropriate. Wow, thanks for finding this. I’m going to show it to the superintendent. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/158 "2015-06-05T19:52:36Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > When I got home from work I asked Catherine when she first learned her grade was a function sales quotas (for both the yearbook itself and ads contained within). She said there was never a formal announcement, and that she first became aware of it about halfway through the fourth quarter. Well, it seems this is a lesson learned for Cathy – to bring this sort of thing up to you ASAP. If she didn’t do so at the time. Good luck on sorting this out. The grading policy is ridiculous. In high school, the yearbook staff did sell, but people signed up to do this, and others signed up to do art/layout/interviews/writeups. This allowed people to play to their strengths. I was the editor of my high-school newspaper. I didn’t have a car, and it would’ve been difficult for me to traipse around and get ads. I was a really good copy editor, though, and crazy good with layout (which was manual and required mad cut and paste skills with an exacto knife). So, the teacher had the managing editor handle ad sales, and I handled a higher percentage of editorial duties. Flexibility in this kind of class is important. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/159 "2015-06-27T14:34:28Z")
Update: I contacted the superintendent a few weeks ago via email. His response: > [@](#): > > I was told a student’s grade was not a function of ad sales. I have asked [the principal] to meet with you again. I would be more than happy to attend the meeting if you like. I emailed back, saying I would like another f2f meeting with the principal, and ask if he could also attend. Apparently this must have put some heat on the principal. Because yesterday I received this email from him: > [@](#): > > As I mentioned before, [the Yearbook teacher] and I are working through our grading expectations for next school year in order to eliminate the requirement for ad sales as a part of a student’s grade. > > I feel that it is justifiable to ask students to help with ad sales and maybe even be graded on their participation and effort rather than the number of dollars they generate. > > Even thought this is for next year, we have already exempted those grades for Catherine for the spring quarter 2015. Her grade increased from a “B” to an “A.” > > We are not going to go back to the previous grading periods unless you want us too. If we exempted all of her grades based on ad or yearbook sales, it would actually bring her grade down during the first quarter. It would not affect her second grading period scores and would be very insignificant with her third quarter grades. Overall it would hurt her more than help, so if is all the same to you, we will only focus on the fourth quarter. > > You had asked about other school districts’ protocols for grading yearbook ad sales. I received responses from [A], \*\*, [C], [D], [E], [F] and [G]. One required students to sell ads as a part of their grade just the same as what we had done until now. Four had grades attached to participation/effort of the students and the remaining two asked the students to help, but had no grade associated with it. > > If you feel we still need to meet, please call me at XXX-XXXX ext. XXX. I am here through Tuesday and then as needed through the end of July. During the summer months it becomes more difficult to get all of the parties here at a specific time, but we will certainly do our best. Please let me know if you still would like to meet. thanks. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488/160 "2015-06-27T15:14:18Z")
Great outcome, looks like you fixed your daughter’s problem and fixed it for everyone else in the future. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grading-criteria-of-our-daughters-hs-teacher-unfair-need-answer-fast/721488.md?page=9)