# Graduate school advice, please **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 12, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduate-school-advice-please/212886 "2003-11-12T19:49:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rackensack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@rackensack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rackensack)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduate-school-advice-please/212886/21 "2003-11-13T20:04:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phlosphr \* > \*\*And you still know what criteria go into a college entrance essay? We change our criteria for grad students entrance essays quite often. Same as undergrad. How do I know? Because I’m on the admissions guidelines committee. \*\* I may not know what a grad admissions committee is using as criteria this year, or specifically how they’re weighting those criteria. Given a description of one of the requirements, however, in the context of a graduate program in English, I do think I’m able to read and understand what they’re looking for; I don’t believe that what’s meant by > [@](#): > > **a 12-25 page “critical essay” with “scholarly citations” on some literary topic** is likely to be substantially different than it was fifteen years ago, nor are the standards by which it’s judged. Today’s committee is going to be looking for evidence that the applicant can do research on literary topics competently, can think, can write, and can follow the prescribed format for such documents (MLA Style, in this case) – just as they did seventeen years ago when I was applying to graduate schools. > [@](#): > > \*\*As per issues with my [grammar](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=209383&highlight=grammar) and writing style. I know. \*\* Sorry to bring up a sore topic 😉 . Despite my background (including stints as a proofreader and copyeditor), I try not to be pendantic about such things. I’d probably not have mentioned the spelling and grammar issues if not for the numerous instances of usage problems – places where words or phrases either don’t mean what they seem to be intended to mean, or where they’re used non-idiomatically, so that they’re distracting and/or confusing. You spell better than my wife (write better than she does too, for that matter), and I still love her dearly. ---
**Author:** ![MissGypsy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8491ac/32.png) [@MissGypsy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MissGypsy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduate-school-advice-please/212886/22 "2003-11-13T21:00:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Harriet the Spry \* > \*\*If your goal is definitely to teach in a university, maybe a bigger concern than which school should be whether you should be in a PhD program instead of an M.A. When I looked briefly into graduate English programs in NC, it seemed like PhD programs often got students started right away in Teaching Assistantships. It seemed like you applied to either the Master’s or PhD program, not that you completed the Master’s, then applied for the PhD. \*\* I’ve looked into this possibility, and I’m amazed that I could just apply for the PhD program and skip the MA. Is this very commonly done? Then why would anyone bother with a Master’s? In particular, I’ve found that funding is not available to Master’s candidates, but is to PhD folks. So again, why would anyone go for the MA? Is a PhD program significantly more difficult, or just more focused? Sounds like I may need to readjust my goals, here… BTW, thanks all for the input. You’ve all given me some good points to consider (and extra thanks for the encouragement, Phlophr!) ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduate-school-advice-please/212886/23 "2003-11-13T21:28:53Z")
I don’t think this was clear when I posted before, but even if you apply to the PhD program, you still complete the M.A., then the PhD. It’s just that you commit yourself for the long haul from the start. A PhD is about expanding the boundaries of a field (contributing new and original research, thought, etc.). With an M.A., you are more focused on mastering the field as it exists. 3 reasons for the M.A. as opposed to the PhD that I can think of. One is the person who just wants to learn. Another is to be able to teach at community college. Or, to get a slightly better teaching gig at H.S. level or below. A couple other reasons, more speculatively. Perhaps some people can’t get in at the PhD level, and think if they get the MA they can try again later. Or the M.A. may be more flexible for part-time students. ---
**Author:** ![MissGypsy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8491ac/32.png) [@MissGypsy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MissGypsy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduate-school-advice-please/212886/24 "2003-11-13T21:51:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Harriet the Spry \* > **I don’t think this was clear when I posted before, but even if you apply to the PhD program, you still complete the M.A., then the PhD. It’s just that you commit yourself for the long haul from the start.** Aha, that makes more sense. Frankly, I’d intended to pursue a PhD eventually, so that route is probably what I need to follow from the start. Suppose I keep my full-time job and go to school part-time. About how many years are those 2 degrees going to take? I’m guessing 5-6, but I can live on almost no sleep, and I’m rather intense about accomplishing this improvement. Could I cram it into less time? I know, I’m asking lots of stupid questions, but one has to begin somewhere. 🙂 I’d rather seem ignorant here than in the admissions office. ---
**Author:** ![rackensack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@rackensack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rackensack)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduate-school-advice-please/212886/25 "2003-11-13T22:01:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Harriet the Spry \* > \*\*I don’t think this was clear when I posted before, but even if you apply to the PhD program, you still complete the M.A., then the PhD. It’s just that you commit yourself for the long haul from the start. \*\* While that is the most common scenario, it’s far from universal. At Emory, at least when I was there, the English program rarely awarded M.A.s to Ph.D. candidates. The exceptions were for doctoral candidates who’d finished everything except the dissertation and needed the M.A. as a prerequisite for a teaching position at another institution while they completed it, and for students who failed to pass either the written or oral comprehensive exams for the Ph.D. – they were given the option of completing a thesis and taking an M.A. Only happened to one person that I know of while I was there, however. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduate-school-advice-please/212886/26 "2003-11-13T22:05:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Today’s committee is going to be looking for evidence that the applicant can do research on literary topics competently, can think, can write, and can follow the prescribed format for such documents (MLA Style, in this case) – I’ll not split hairs here **rackensack** - we look for individual integrity and individual original thought. [Think graduate entrance essay not under grad for this next part] -\> Don’t quote **Alexander Soljenitsin** in your essay, no, instead write like you understand what he said, not what he wrote. Do you see where I’m going with this? You are a very good writer **rackensack** as evidenced by your posts. If I were you I’d be writing a novel and not writing to dissuade someone from persuing their goals. I know, I know this is not what you set out to do in this thread. Sufficed to say we are all looking out for **MissGypsy** and her very exciting future in grad school. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduate-school-advice-please/212886/27 "2003-11-13T22:20:02Z")
**MissGypsy** said: > [@](#): > > Suppose I keep my full-time job and go to school part-time. About how many years are those 2 degrees going to take? I’m guessing 5-6, but I can live on almost no sleep, and I’m rather intense about accomplishing this improvement. Could I cram it into less time? That is a very good guess, however, will you be going part time or full time? Full time 4 years, maybe 3.5. I entered Grad school in 1991 and was defending my dissertation in 1995. I bulled through grad school mainly because I had met my now wife in my second year of grad school, and we were both studying the same things. I was fortunate to have applied for the position I have now at my alma mater before finishing my PhD. Because,as soon as I finished the doctorate the _fellow_ who was working as a psych prof at my school went on to bigger and better things, and I had shown interest in this position…I was hired with-in a month of my PhD completion…I’ve been here now for almost 8 years. ---
**Author:** ![rackensack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@rackensack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rackensack)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduate-school-advice-please/212886/28 "2003-11-13T23:36:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MissGypsy \* > **Frankly, I’d intended to pursue a PhD eventually, so that route is probably what I need to follow from the start.** If you think you want a Ph.D., absolutely. The relative paucity of good reasons for getting just an M.A. in English is why I was pressing so hard about why that’s what you wanted to do. By applying directly to the Ph.D. program, you make yourself eligible for fellowships and assistantships, and the faculty will take you much more seriously. They won’t admit you and offer you aid unless they believe that you have what it takes, but once they do they’re much more motivated to make sure you succeed. As I’ve said, programs get judged by the quality of the Ph.D.s they generate. In most cases, departments are awarded a certain number of “lines” of aid each year, which they in turn award to the incoming candidates. A “line” is generally a commitment from the university to continue awarding aid to that candidate each subsequent year, as long as acceptable progress is being made toward the degree. If you don’t complete the degree, however, there’s no guarantee that the department will be able to offer that line to another incoming candidate next year – a department with a better track record of admitting candidates who finish might get it instead. Fewer lines means fewer candidates getting aid, fewer candidates means fewer Ph.D.s, which means the odds of having the next Walter Jackson Bate or (god help us) Harold Bloom among them are lower. That’s why terminal M.A. candidates don’t get aid – they’re as likely as not to get their Ph.D. at another institution, and nobody will care where they got their M.A., so it’s a waste of resources from the department’s perspective. > [@](#): > > **Suppose I keep my full-time job and go to school part-time. About how many years are those 2 degrees going to take? I’m guessing 5-6, but I can live on almost no sleep, and I’m rather intense about accomplishing this improvement. Could I cram it into less time?** Most departments are putting a premium on rapid completion of the program these days. Most of the upper-tier universities, at least, will expect you to take a full courseload for six semesters, until you’ve completed the coursework requirement. The department’s going to expect academics to be your main priority through all this, and in order to get assistantship money, you’re going to have teaching duties as well (usually one or two sections of freshman comp or intro to lit per semester). Makes it tough to hold down a full-time outside job, particularly in the first couple of years, when you have a full courseload and teaching duties. Emory reworked their program while I was there in an effort to shave a year or so off the average time to complete, which was about six and a half years at the time for students working more or less full time toward the degree. I knew several students who were eight years or more into the program. They were, however, trying to get the nominal expectation down to about five years. I have seen one or two people blow through in a little over four years, but they were the sort who practically had their dissertation mentally written before they ever started the program. I just looked at Northwestern’s English Ph.D. requirements web page, and they’re claiming a maximum of five years from admission to candidacy is allowed to complete the dissertation (in practical terms, that means six years if you enter with a B.A.). I’ll guarantee that a large number of candidates apply for and receive extensions of one or two or even three years, but that’s at the discretion of the department and university. It’d be a challenge to do better than five or six years if there’s anything part-time about your efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduate-school-advice-please/212886/29 "2003-11-14T00:36:02Z")
Well, I might quibble with RACKENSACK for being a tad too harsh (or, hey, I might not), but I agree that it is reasonable to ask what you expect to get out of this/ where you expect to end up, before you make the _major_ investment of time, money, and energy that this represents. If you’re thinking of pursuing a career (a second career?) in academia, I think it’s worth noting that the market for English professors is extremely tight. (I’m not in academia myself, so I will certainly take correction from people who are, but I believe this is accurate.) Your eventual PhD may not be anything more than a very expensive piece of paper, unless you have a clear plan for how you are going to make yourself stand out and be extremely marketable in extraordinarily competitive field. I toy with the idea of going back to school myself, but I find myself more than a little fuzzy on the where and the why and the for what (subject-wise) – which is why I never actually go. (So far.) But for my piece of advice: I highly recommend you read the various columnists who address the subject of academic careers in the _Chronicle of Higher Education_, found [here](http://chronicle.com/). (Go to “Jobs” and then go to “News & Advice”.) You will find lots of writings on the experience of searching for, getting, keeping, giving up, and/or losing jobs in academia. I think that if you read quite a few of them you will find that on the whole they give a pretty fair idea of the pluses and minuses of hitching your wagon to this particular star. Then if at the end of the day, this is still what you really want to do – more power to you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![fizgig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f04885/32.png) [@fizgig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fizgig)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduate-school-advice-please/212886/30 "2003-11-14T03:54:17Z")
I found the GRE prep books to be helpful. Also, the GRE website lists all of the topics for the essay portions. I’d highly recommend reviewing these, and doing a couple timed practice writes. I think spending more prep time on this section would have bumped me from a 5.5 to a 6.0/6.0. Knowing all the rules for math, geometry, etc. are very helpful for your math score. fizgig - having sent my thesis to the graduate school this morning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduate-school-advice-please/212886.md?page=1)