# Graduating from Hogwarts **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduating-from-hogwarts/590175 "2011-07-24T14:50:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduating-from-hogwarts/590175/81 "2011-07-28T11:13:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It is, however, true that at most US colleges, you can delay your choice of major by a year or two. Most majors will have a significant number of “general studies” classes required: Everyone, regardless of major, is expected to have at least some background in history, and literature, and the sciences, and so on. So if you haven’t yet chosen a major when you get to college, you’ll spend your first year or two just taking those classes. And if you still haven’t chosen, there’s often some sort of general studies major, whereby you can actually graduate college without ever specializing. > > This system does not work particularly well for the sciences. If you transfer into a science major from some other major or undecided (including another science, unless it’s _really_ closely related), you’re almost guaranteed to need at least an extra year to get your degree. Most semesters, I was actually required to take more classes than students in most majors were allowed to take. Worth noting that in the UK, we don’t have the majoring and minoring system at all. You pick a subject, and that’s it, by and large. And we don’t have the general studies classes, at least, not as an additional required part of some specialized degree. You might choose to join a course the university or a professor runs that are basically just after-school lessons (mine for example offered several different non-degree language classes, which I expect would be pretty standard), but those would not count towards your degree. We do have modules within those courses that you can select from, though, generally with your amount of choice increasing with time of study - again to use me as an example, I didn’t get any choice of modules for the first year, but then for the second and third years I had both required basic ones and then a required four out of six more specialised choices. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduating-from-hogwarts/590175/82 "2011-07-28T12:10:59Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Worth noting that in the UK, we don’t have the majoring and minoring system at all. You pick a subject, and that’s it, by and large. … > > We do have modules within those courses that you can select from, though … . One addition to make, in a great many degree courses, you are required to take a module outside your own subject. For example, I did a degree in Computer Science, but one of the modules was introductory economics. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduating-from-hogwarts/590175/83 "2011-07-28T12:13:56Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > AK84 writes: > > \> My point was that the US Collage student who I met then (we spent near two > \> month in the States circa summer 2005 Columbia and Harvard) seemed to have > \> less pressure and far more free time then we did. I was also quite jealous as > \> they seemed to be getting a more rounded education than we were; they could > \> study Greek Lit and Philosophy if they so desired and I would dearly have loved > \> to; instead of having to decipher Land Law. > > If the only college students you talked to were ones who went to Columbia or Harvard, then they weren’t typical at all of American college students. The ones you talked to were the ones who did extremely well in high school. They had been pushed very hard for at least the previous four years (and probably also pushed hard for most of their childhood) and could now slow down a little. Furthermore, is what you’re saying is that you were starting to study law courses in your first year of university rather than being able to put it off until after you got a bachelor’s degree? (I think that’s what you’re saying but I’m not sure. Did you get a law degree? It would really help if you explained things more carefully.) . Look for me it was this. Did my A-Levels in 2003. Got my result and was accepted into the [LLB (Hon) programme](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Laws) (basically the first step to be a lawyer). Three years of law with a total of twelve subjects graduated applied to and was accepted for the [Bar Vocational Course](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Professional_Training_Course) and after a year of hell was called to the Bar by [Lincoln’s Inn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln's_Inn) (you undertake two masters level courses during the Bar, the Bar Course itself and a Post Graduate Diploma in Law and are awarded a qualification for each). Unlike most American students even considering your post; my entire education was predicated upon becoming a lawyer and thats what I did from the day I entered Uni. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduating-from-hogwarts/590175/84 "2011-07-28T12:15:07Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > One addition to make, in a great many degree courses, you are required to take a module outside your own subject. For example, I did a degree in Computer Science, but one of the modules was introductory economics. Not in law, we had classes on sociology and culture and even forensics; but none except for the last was formally assessed and even then it came as a section in the Evidence paper. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduating-from-hogwarts/590175/85 "2011-07-28T12:22:05Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > One addition to make, in a great many degree courses, you are required to take a module outside your own subject. For example, I did a degree in Computer Science, but one of the modules was introductory economics. I think that is very dependent on not only the course but also the university. It certainly wasn’t an option for my Pure Maths degree. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduating-from-hogwarts/590175/86 "2011-07-28T14:54:42Z")
AK84, is it really true that you couldn’t have studied Greek literature and philosophy at university if you had wanted to? Are you telling me that anyone in the U.K. who graduates from a university with a degree in something other than a law program can never in the future go back to university and go through the law program and become a lawyer? As I’ve indicated above, it’s not that an American college student who wants to become a lawyer gets to slack off for four years. To get into a top law school, they have to do very well in some subject, and then they have to spend just as much time as you did studying law. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduating-from-hogwarts/590175/87 "2011-07-28T15:18:36Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > AK84, is it really true that you couldn’t have studied Greek literature and philosophy at university if you had wanted to? Are you telling me that anyone in the U.K. who graduates from a university with a degree in something other than a law program can never in the future go back to university and go through the law program and become a lawyer? As I’ve indicated above, it’s not that an American college student who wants to become a lawyer gets to slack off for four years. To get into a top law school, they have to do very well in some subject, and then they have to spend just as much time as you did studying law. Actually there is something called the [Common Professional Examination](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Professional_Examination). It is a one or two year programme for non law graduates, who can then go for the Bar (or the Legal Practice Course if the want to be Solicitors). And indeed we get many people that way. However the fees are bout 5-10,000 pounds; beside living exoenses. My point was that you had little oppurtunity during your undergraduate degree to do something different; take a course in something which you might never be able to do so again ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduating-from-hogwarts/590175/88 "2011-07-29T21:46:46Z")
Thanks for the info on the UK system. Very informative. > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Second, those students were wildly untypical of average American college students. If you watch too many bad American TV shows or movies, you will get the idea that the following things are true of nearly all college students: > > … > > None of these are true of nearly all American college students. The percent of American college students that all of these are true of is very small. I won’t argue the list in general, or that there are few students that fit that entire list. But I will argue that there are plenty of students who (4.) Graduate high school the normal way. (3.) Go to college immediately after high school. (1.) Attend a four-year college as soon as they enter college. (5.) Attend college full time (though some may have part time jobs on top of that). (6.) Are single with no children. (9.) Live on campus or in fraternity/sorority houses. (11.) Go to lots\* of drunken parties. (12.) Have time to go to athletic events. I was going to list 7 but realized that isn’t technically true about me. I did work-study, so alternated semesters at school and at work. It wasn’t precisely going straight through, but it was a college organized program with a definite schedule of swapping between the two (co-oping). It was not stopping and then picking up when I was able, it was coordinated to alternating semesters (including summer term) putting my college classwork on hold and working in the field of study. And my scholarship was on hold as well. (I did 10 semesters, trading 2 spring/fall terms for 1 summer term. I had 1 summer off in that time, the other took classes at my local community college mostly because I could, and my parents wanted me doing something.) The percentage may be lower than one might expect (20% instead of 80%?) But the stereotype comes from somewhere. Even if the percentage is only 20%, there’s still plenty enough to fill the undergraduate ranks of state universities. \*Note that lots of drunken parties is an imprecise measure. How about bar-hopping on Friday and Saturday nights 3 weeks a month? How about some sort of drunken party once a month? What constitutes lots? And yes, dropping out happens. A lot. > [@](#): > > A little less than a third of them are majoring in a liberal arts subject. For the purposes of this discussion, a liberal arts major is one in humanities (literature, philosophy, languages, art history, etc.), social sciences (anthropology, history, sociology, psychology, political science, etc.), or natural science (physics, chemistry, biology, math, etc.). Instead, they are studying education (i.e., preparing to be elementary or high school teachers), business, engineering, nursing, medical technology, and a host of other things that you probably didn’t even realize were possible college majors, like computer game design. So the number of American college students who are getting the rounded college education that you talk about is actually rather small. Most university Bachelor’s degrees include some level of non-major programs as requirements. As **Chronos** stated, even the most specialized of those major programs have a swath of “general studies” classes that must be met - say 2 humanities, a basic science, a basic arts, and a literature or foreign language - within each category having a list of acceptable alternates, such as Philosophy 101 or Sociology 101 or American History 101 or World Geography 101. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Worth noting that in the UK, we don’t have the majoring and minoring system at all. You pick a subject, and that’s it, by and large. Many Americans only pick a Major and don’t worry about Minors. Minors are acceptable but not required. They typically involve some additional coursework to be slightly broader than the Major in question. A small percentage may also double Major - which as suggested does involve extensive extra work. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduating-from-hogwarts/590175/89 "2011-07-29T22:36:49Z")
There are also some minors that come naturally with some majors. At Villanova, for instance, anyone who got an astronomy major also had all of the coursework for a physics minor, and was only three classes short of a math minor as well (which most of the astro students took). ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduating-from-hogwarts/590175/90 "2011-07-29T22:49:52Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Actually, I think the implicit assumption that the rest of the world must surely follow all the same arbitrary customs observed in the United States deserves a little snark. > > It is a bit like being asked how we celebrate July 4th in England (which I have, indeed, been asked). But the immediate offense from a foreigner on a website based in Chicago is fair game, right? I don’t see the reply needing anything stronger than ‘It’s not something that happens in Britain.’ They went far enough to swap Philosopher/Sorcerer’s Stone. Being snarky at people that don’t know the specifics of your culture is equally boorish. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduating-from-hogwarts/590175/91 "2011-07-29T23:07:13Z")
Actually in the UK leaving school without A levels or even GCSEs isn’t an absolute bar to going to university. There are a number of routes. Firstly do the courses at a college that offers another chance to get the qualifications. Secondly there are a couple of non traditional routes for mature students. In the case of someone who has say some relevant qualifications _and_ has relevant work experience they can get in on passing an interview – a friend of mine is just starting an IT course this way, having dropped out 3/4 of the way through A levels more than 30 years ago. Alternatively there are foundation courses for would be students that aim to catch them up in core subjects and teach study skills. On a full time basis it takes about a year to pass enough units to qualify. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graduating-from-hogwarts/590175.md?page=4)