# Graham Norton hit a new low tonight **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145 "2003-03-17T23:34:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Merseybeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Merseybeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merseybeat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/61 "2003-03-19T19:27:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by London\_Calling > Thang yew, thang yew … have you bought tickets for the meat raffle yet ? Don’t like meat much, so no. Q. What do you call a male scouser in a suit? A. The defendant. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/62 "2003-03-19T19:31:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Merseybeat \* > I was referring to the ones who travel in convoys with old clapped-out trucks. BZZZZ. Incorrect answer. You said, and I quote: > [@](#): > > As for the CRE report about Irish travellers, there are also English ones as well. and the whole bunch of them are a fuckin’ nuisance. Say after me, “I am a bad boy and should not make sweeping, insulting generalizations against entire ethnic groups then try and backtrack”. > [@](#): > > If you want an alternative lifestyle, fine, but sites are provided and there’s no need to take over some vacant land and make it into a rubbish tip, as has happened near my place of work on a number of occasions. BZZZZ. Incorrect answer. The goverment itself has the following to say about the number of legal sites, from [here](http://www.housing.odpm.gov.uk/information/index14.htm): > [@](#): > > As at January 2002 there were 325 local authority Gypsy sites in England providing pitches for 5,005 caravans. This network of sites provides accommodation for just under 50% of Gypsy caravans. So, a large number of the travelling population have nowhere legal to stop and they park up on vacant lots. Because these are vacant, I think you’ll agree that it’s very unlikely for them to have access to proper waste disposal (both sewerage and garbage). Now they could do what the government would like them to do: Buy and live on their own land. But there is a problem there. From [here](http://www.cf.ac.uk/claws/tlru/ODP2.pdf) (warning - .pdf): > [@](#): > > At present the refusal rate for Gypsies who have applied for planning permission is approximately 90%, in contrast to the general success rate for all applications of over 80%. As an aside, the same cite has figures from the last ‘Gypsy’ counts before the abolition of part II of the Caravan Sites Act 1968: > [@](#): > > …recorded 13,329 caravans in England and Wales; of these, 6,063 were on a total of 324 council sites and 3,204 on private licensed sites, while 4,062 (appox 30%) were on `unauthorized’ sites. Where was I? Oh, yeah, planning permission. Here’s a nice, heart warming series of articles about ethnic cleansing, sorry, I mean what happens when Travellers buy their own land - I’ll link to them in chronological order: [Gypsy experiment faces eviction](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2368099.stm) [Council denies Gypsy prejudice](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2370883.stm) [Gypsy eviction begins amid protests](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2395679.stm) [Gypsies face eviction](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2415961.stm) [Eviction plans delayed](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2442287.stm) I think I’ll stop there, because I could provide cites all night - must be in the genes y’know. On preview: **L\_C** , sorry 'bout the delay mush, we’ll be round a week on Tuesday. If you’re not in, just leave the keys under the mat, so’s we can have a nice cuppa. You ain’t still got that big fucking dog, have ya? ---
**Author:** ![Merseybeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Merseybeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merseybeat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/63 "2003-03-19T19:50:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kal \* > > Say after me, “I am a bad boy and should not make sweeping, insulting generalizations against entire ethnic groups then try and backtrack”. I did **not** make sweeping insults against ethnic groups. I _specifically_ mentioned Irish and English _travellers_ - not all Irish and English people. I mentioned the convoy travelling so that those in other countries would realise that I didn’t mean people just travelling in the UK for business or vacation. I also never mentioned gypsies. If you want to interpret what I say, please get it right. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/64 "2003-03-19T19:55:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Merseybeat \* > \*\*I did **not** make sweeping insults against ethnic groups. I _specifically_ mentioned Irish and English _travellers_ - not all Irish and English people. > > I mentioned the convoy travelling so that those in other countries would realise that I didn’t mean people just travelling in the UK for business or vacation. The travellers **are** the people you made sweeping insults against. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/65 "2003-03-19T20:06:50Z")
::searches pockets:: I _know_ I’ve got a clue around here somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Merseybeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Merseybeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merseybeat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/66 "2003-03-19T20:10:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > The travellers **are** the people you made sweeping insults against. Since when has choosing to live a certain lifestyle made you part of an ethnic group? ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/67 "2003-03-19T20:14:49Z")
:smack: Dordhi! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/68 "2003-03-19T20:24:45Z")
**Merseybeat** - Fucking ROMA, you fucking idiot. An ethnic group. One **Kal** is part of. Jesus H Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Infectious\_Lass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e56c9b/32.png) [@Infectious\_Lass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infectious_Lass)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/69 "2003-03-19T20:29:12Z")
Er…I think I should point out that in England (or at least the bit of it I am in) ‘Irish travellers’ are not regarded as being the same people as Romanies. And as far as I know they are a completely different people (I could be wrong but that’s what I always heard) \*\*Kal[/] and **Twistoffate** , I don’t think **Merseybeat** has a clue what you are on about. This isn’t about the Romany people at all. This is about itinerant Irish people who travel around in the south of England. They have nothing to do with Romanies. All I can say is, I and everyone I know have had bad dealings with these people. They are rude, teach their children to be rude, they threaten and intimidate and trash and vandalise every place they go. No, I can’t say that every one of them is like that, but sadly it looks as though most of them are. I used to be idealistic and saying “no you can’t say they are bad that’s racist!” but guess what? one day some of these people had camped at some meadows near me where I was walking my dog and they threatened me! just for walking near their motorhomes in the place where I always walked. And this is not the only incident like that. I’m not idealistic about them anymore. Sorry, but Travellers are scum. If they don’t want people hating them maybe they should stop threatening people and trashing every single place they go. This is not just an isolated example, like I say _everyone_ I know has stories like these. The police won’t touch them because they are intimidated by them like anyone else. They are above the law and it is sickening. Kal and Twisty, This is not about the Romany people. The Irish travellers are not Romanies! In fact, the travellers are giving the Romanies a bad name. I think Merseybeat is bewildered by you bringing in your political agendas about a completely seperate issue into this. This is not about anti-Romany prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![Merseybeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Merseybeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merseybeat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/70 "2003-03-19T20:38:35Z")
I was totally bewildered till Infectious Lass just explained it. I was indeed referring to those sorts of people and not Romanies. I apologize if I offended anyone - it was certainly not meant to be a racial thing. ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/71 "2003-03-19T20:40:34Z")
Not all travellers are Roma. But there are some 15 million Romanis dispersed accross the world, a significant percentage of whom are travelling in the UK. When you are prejudiced against travellers in the UK, you are prejudiced against the Roma. It’s a cop-out to say “Travellers are scum… but I don’t mean the Roma”. The Roma are travellers. “Travellers are scum” logically includes “Roma are scum”. You’re trashing a way of life central to an ethnicity with anecdotes and rumours. I’m sure Kal will explain much more clearly than I could. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/72 "2003-03-19T21:38:48Z")
Order ! Order ! Only a few tickets left for the meat raffle !! … don’t come crying to me if you leave it too late … next turn: Whippets down t’trousers \ … 'ush down, Mr Snodgrass and don’t leave your teeth on the table like that, gives folk a fright … ---
**Author:** ![Merseybeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Merseybeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merseybeat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/73 "2003-03-19T22:01:24Z")
Is there any lovely tripe included in’t meat raffle? ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/74 "2003-03-19T22:33:11Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sure Kal will explain much more clearly than I could. You explained pretty clearly **Francesca**. I’ll add a couple of points though. Traveller is the nice, polite term for all travelling people in Britain - be they Pavee (Irish Traveller), Romanichal (British Romanies), Showmen (Fairground folk), Circus families and any other group that lives life on the road. However, it should be noted that it particularly refers to the Romani and Pavee. Both of which are classed as ethnic groups. So when somebody posts > [@](#): > > As for the CRE report about Irish travellers, there are also English ones as well. and the whole bunch of them are a fuckin’ nuisance. I’m supposed to know which kind of Traveller they’re talking about? Hard to do, mainly because of the “whole bunch of them” bit. It gets fucking old reading or hearing people slag off Travellers - sometimes using slang terms that most British posters will know, slang terms that are specifically aimed at Romani people - Then backtrack and say something along the lines of “Oh no, I don’t mean _true_ Romanies. I mean the other ones”. As **Francesca** said, it’s a cop-out. Bad analogy time; If someone was ranting about Europeans being scum, using terms like ‘Brits’ and ‘Limeys’ you’d be pissed off - even if later they clarify that they just mean Germans. **Infectious Lass** : > [@](#): > > Sorry, but Travellers are scum. See the definition of the term ‘Traveller’ that I posted above. Now, if you just meant Irish Travellers you’ll be pleased to know that I’ve heard they also speak very highly of you. **L\_C** : Got any hedgehogs in that meat raffle, mate? I’m bloody starving! ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/75 "2003-03-19T22:42:20Z")
racer1: > [@](#): > > you can’t seriously be arguing that something one guy has said proves that British people in general have anti-Irish tendencies? Oh for heaven’s sake, I gave that as a specific example which shows that anti-Irish sentiment still exists in Britain. This is quite a far cry from claiming that British people in general are anti-Irish, and I do resent you putting words in my mouth. Malacandra: > [@](#): > > I do not feel that even their most rabid Irish-rights advocate would ever presume to mention the status of the Irish in Britain in the same breath as the treatment of Black slaves in the pre-Civil War USA. No, the Irish don’t have it as bad as the slaves did. They also don’t have it as bad as the Palestinians do, and I don’t recall you popping up in each of the 100s of threads where that comparison has been made objecting to it. Anyway, I’m simply drawing an analogy between two situations in which a socially-inferior minority subjects itself to ridicule for the amusement of the majority. There is no need to read this as implying the two minorities are _equally_ inferior. And as for the travellers … what Kal says. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/76 "2003-03-19T22:42:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Francesca \* > \*\*Not all travellers are Roma. But there are some 15 million Romanis dispersed accross the world, a significant percentage of whom are travelling in the UK. When you are prejudiced against travellers in the UK, you are prejudiced against the Roma. > > It’s a cop-out to say “Travellers are scum… but I don’t mean the Roma”. The Roma are travellers. “Travellers are scum” logically includes “Roma are scum”. You’re trashing a way of life central to an ethnicity with anecdotes and rumours. I’m sure Kal will explain much more clearly than I could. \*\* Nonsense, Francesca. What’s inconsistent about saying “Roma (or “Romanies” or “Gypsies”) don’t, as far as I’m aware, cause much in the way of trouble, do a great deal of harm, or even come to my notice to any great extent, so they’re welcome to their way of life. There are, however, some other ‘travellers’ who are a grade-A pain, and I could do without them very well”? It’s not a cop-out, but a simple qualification of a general case. How about if I said “I deeply distrust bearded men… but I don’t mean Sikhs”? ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/77 "2003-03-19T23:50:23Z")
In all my life I’ve never heard, “Roma (or “Romanies” or “Gypsies”) don’t, as far as I’m aware, cause much in the way of trouble, do a great deal of harm, or even come to my notice to any great extent, so they’re welcome to their way of life. There are, however, some other ‘travellers’ who are a grade-A pain, and I could do without them very well”. I’ve heard “Gypsy/Traveller/Pikey/Gyppo scum” quite a few times - Often followed by a cop-out that Romanies were not meant. Your way of saying it sounds quite good. Unfortunately, it too falls into the “_true_, Romany Gypsy” trap. The true Romany has never existed - you can blame George Barrow for that stereotype. Fact is, most folks wouldn’t know a Romani person if they were bitten on the ass by one. Here’s another .pdf: > **[School of Law and Politics](https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/law-politics)** > > We are a research-led School with a reputation for internationally excellent research and high quality teaching. There’s a section in it that deals with the good Gypsy/bad Gypsy stereotypes, it’s too large a section for me to quote within the SDMB guidelines. **ruadh** : Sorry for the hijack. FWIW, I can understand why the Westlife skit offended you. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/78 "2003-03-19T23:55:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Merseybeat_ > Is there any lovely tripe included in’t meat raffle? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kal \* > L\_C: Got any hedgehogs in that meat raffle, mate? I’m bloody starving! Get a grip, gents. It’s – to borrow a word from Francesca – a **FUCKING** raffle, not the Crossroads cafeteria > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kal \* > If you’re not in, just leave the keys under the mat, so’s we can have a nice cuppa. You ain’t still got that big fucking dog, have ya? You’ve met ‘er in doors, then. I don’t suppose she can go the same way as that tarmac I paid for ? So anyway, I’d like to thank you all as I’m much wiser because of this thread. As I understand it now, **Merseybeat** (the scouser) nicks the car radio’s and **Kal** (the Pikey) fences them, and neither of ‘em is interested in this rack of lamb. - _End of stereotyping \* Btw, genuinely interested in your hedgehog comment \*\* Kal_\* – care to scotch my burning ignorance (I presume you’re a country type) ? London - ‘there’s only one Amy Turtle’ - Calling ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/79 "2003-03-20T00:39:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Btw, genuinely interested in your hedgehog comment Kal – care to scotch my burning ignorance (I presume you’re a country type) ? Was. When we travelled, we kept ourselves out of the way as much as possible, stopping on farmland (mostly with permission of the farmer, I must add). Anyway, hedgehogs or hotchiwitchis as we call 'em. Nah, we don’t really eat 'em… Often, anyway. It’s not like your average Romani family tucks into a dinner of hedgehog and chips every night - although it is quite funny to wind folks up by telling 'em we do. (I used to enjoy telling folks that we called squashed hedgehogs “Gypsy pizza”). They’re more of a ritual thing used by a shiovano (shaman) and there’s not that many shiovanos left nowdays. I suppose in the old days, if a family was really hungry, they may have been eaten more. If you’re really interested, the meat looks like dark chicken meat but tastes like a very strong pork. And you don’t cook 'em rolled in mud, you burn the prickles off before cooking it. ---
**Author:** ![Merseybeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Merseybeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merseybeat)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/80 "2003-03-20T01:55:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > > London - ‘there’s only one Amy Turtle’ - Calling Don’t diss my favourite lady - Amy Turtle - she’s a one-off (hopefully). And I have trouble helping people **fitting** car radios, let alone removing them [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145.md?page=5)