# Graham Norton hit a new low tonight **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145 "2003-03-17T23:34:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Racer1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee59a6/32.png) [@Racer1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Racer1)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/81 "2003-03-20T08:50:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\*racer1: > > Oh for heaven’s sake, I gave that as a specific example which shows that anti-Irish sentiment still exists in Britain. This is quite a far cry from claiming that British people in general are anti-Irish, and I do resent you putting words in my mouth. > > **snip** \*\* My apologies as it seems I misunderstood you, but since you had asked me specifically to read the report, I assumed you had disagreed with my earlier post where I mentioned that one person’s view does not mean there are widespread anti-Irish feelings in Britain. Of course there will be idiots in every country willing to put down people from any other country, so you have my full agreement there. My mistake, and if you wanted me to comment on something else (rather than it just being a “for your info” thing) then please give me a kick in the right direction and I will answer as best I can. 🙂 Anyway, how about we just all agree to drink to all the disadvantaged people in any country next time we’re in a pub, and wish everyone equality and happiness? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/82 "2003-03-20T10:44:20Z")
Merseybeat and Infectious lass, Yes, there are a lot of issues that settled folk have with Travellers, but you can go back and say “ooh! I meant this sect of them, not them all” when questioned on it. I completely agree that there are issues that the Pavees (and Roma, and Shinti, and showmen… have I left any out Kal?) are responsible for, just as there are issues that us settled folk are responsible for. But simply dismissing them all as “scum” is a pointless exercise, and ignorant. Would you know the difference between a Pavee camp and a Roma camp? if you saw one in a halting site or a roadside camp, what would you guess it is? If its clean, is it a Roma, but if it is a mess it Pavee? I’m not actually saying that you would make that judgement, but I’m just trying to show you why it is wrong to “paint with the large brush” 🙂 I’m sorry to hear that you haven’t had any good experiences with Travellers, but it’s still no excuse to just wholesale dismiss them all as scum. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/83 "2003-03-20T11:06:41Z")
When I was a kid in Hampshire, I was in the local woods, and me and my mate found a still-warm campfire. On the ashes was a ball of clay, hollow and broken in two, with hedgehog spines embedded in it. Nifty way to simultaneously cook and despine a tasty hedgehoggy treat. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Clawman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47c2d/32.png) [@The\_Clawman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Clawman)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/84 "2003-03-20T11:19:55Z")
I didn’t know “Pikey” was a derogatory term for Travelling people. I’ve only heard it used to describe Wayne and Waynetta types. Oh well, Ignorance Fought and all that. ---
**Author:** ![bifar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bifar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bifar)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/85 "2003-03-20T11:22:35Z")
\ Was that the lovely New Forest, jjimm? Cos I hark from there. I like to think I have a tiny bit of \ blood in me as my great-great uncle chose to live in a charcoal-burning stove (without the charcoal in it) in the middle of the Forest and catch snakes. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/86 "2003-03-20T11:36:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bifar \* > \*\*\ > > Was that the lovely New Forest, jjimm? Cos I hark from there. I like to think I have a tiny bit of \ blood in me as my great-great uncle chose to live in a charcoal-burning stove (without the charcoal in it) in the middle of the Forest and catch snakes. \*\* \ Alas, no, though I’ve been to the New Forest and think it’s a magical place. And not well enough publicised to tourists (though maybe that’s a good thing). Charcoal burning stove? I’ve seen them in real life, but never converted. Unfortunately, our woods was a small bit of Church Crookham that hadn’t (then) been developed. I’d imagine now that it’s subsumed in a housing estate. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/87 "2003-03-20T11:53:51Z")
> [@](#): > > I completely agree that there are issues that the Pavees (and Roma, and Shinti, and showmen… have I left any out Kal?) Well I don’t think we have many _Sinti_ over here (I do know of one or two though), but the Romanichal are related to them and the Manush. Here’s a factsheet about Travelling people: [http://www.cf.ac.uk/claws/tlru/Factsheet.pdf](http://www.cf.ac.uk/claws/tlru/Factsheet.pdf) - Once again, it’s a .pdf. From it, we get a list of people who fit under the label of ‘Traveller’: > [@](#): > > The terms `Travellers' or `Travelling people’ could usually be taken to include Gypsies, whether English, Welsh or Scottish; Irish Travellers; so-called `New’ Travellers some of whom are third generation; Roma people from Europe who have obtained refugee status; fairground families; and Bargees and other boat-dwelling people. In other words, people who are, or have traditionally been, associated with a nomadic lifestyle: around 200,000-300,000 individuals I’d add Circus folk to the list. You’re welcome. Oh yeah, 'nother little linkeroonie to be found [here.](http://www.cf.ac.uk/claws/tlru/Info.html) It covers Traveller issues such as Demography. Needs, Behaviour and Invisibility (and no, that last one doesn’t mean some Romani magic trick). Interesting read, but I’m sure that Outraged, of Staines will just think of it as the whitterings of Traveller apologists who don’t know what these people are really like, they’re evil I tell you, eeeviiiiiillllll!" **jjimm** : Ah, there you see the dangers of my posting late at night. Where I said: > [@](#): > > And you don’t cook 'em rolled in mud, you burn the prickles off before cooking it. Please read: > [@](#): > > And you don’t _just_ cook 'em rolled in mud, you burn the prickles off before cooking it. You shave 'em too. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/88 "2003-03-20T11:59:32Z")
I didn’t know that you shaved 'em too. Surely not terribly hygienic: I had a pet hedgehog until it gave me lice. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/89 "2003-03-20T12:06:43Z")
I can just see the Gillette Corporation planning a new “target demographic” ad campaign… ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/90 "2003-03-20T12:13:00Z")
You burn the spines (I assume to kill any fleas and also to make it easier to handle), shave the fur and then use the mud. Interesting thing is that while non-Romani people often think of hedgehogs as being dirty, because of the fleas and such, in Romani culture they are seen as being a ritually pure animal. That said though, it’s still not eaten a whole lot and I’d have to guess that most Romani folk have never tasted it. Bacon is our meat of choice. **Twisty** : _Gillette - 9 out of 10 hedgehogs prefer it._ ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/91 "2003-03-20T14:15:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\* > > No, the Irish don’t have it as bad as the slaves did. They also don’t have it as bad as the Palestinians do, and I don’t recall you popping up in each of the 100s of threads where that comparison has been made objecting to it. > > \*\* How’s “Because I didn’t see the other thread” as an excuse? 'Sides, it doesn’t alter the basic fact that someone in _this_ thread tried to lump Irish in Britain along with Black slaves, and I cried “silly” on the comparison. You’d do better arguing with what I say, if you think I’m wrong, than complaining that I didn’t advance an analogous argument somewhere else. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\* > Anyway, I’m simply drawing an analogy between two situations in which a socially-inferior minority subjects itself to ridicule for the amusement of the majority. There is no need to read this as implying the two minorities are _equally_ inferior. > \*\* Analogy your grandmother. In even trying to equate the two situtations you’re pushing the analogy to breaking point. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/92 "2003-03-20T14:25:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kal \* > If you’re really interested, the meat looks like dark chicken meat but tastes like a very strong pork. And you don’t cook 'em rolled in mud, you burn the prickles off before cooking it. Yes, very interested. _And_ fascinated. What a striking taste hotchiwitchis seems to have. Looking at them, I wonder if there’s quite a lot of meat, relatively speaking, on those fairly small frames … in fact, I think I will look at them a little more closely from now on …. Yes, yes, a clay oven over a wood fire … hmmmm … This might sound silly, but I find myself thinking of an appropriate sauce to complement roast hotchiwitchis. From your description it sounds, possibly, rather gamey …. ? ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/93 "2003-03-20T14:29:17Z")
My two penn’orth: [ul][li]_Graham Norton’s show isn’t worth watching anymore_[/li]…even if it ever was. He’s never been my cup of tea, but at least his show used to be original and inventive. Stretching it to five shows a week has spread the jam too thinly though. Too much praise from critics has bloated his ego as well, so he’s long since lost track of the difference between an amusing skit and offensive cruelty. Robin Gibb recently threatened him with physical violence after comments he made about Maurice’s death for example. [li]_Westlife are simple-minded media whores_[/li]Their 15 minutes expired some time ago and I can’t imagine who would miss them if the gong sounded now. Blue anyone? Busted? There are plenty more cuddly toys on the conveyor belt. [li]_Travellers_[/li]There are people who live mobile lives following a long-standing tradition, and others who have taken it up comparatively recently. All are easy targets because they are, by definition, outsiders. Prejudice against them may be (similar to) racism or it may be a reaction to a bad personal experience. Neither is OK. You shouldn’t make rash generalisations or judge a person because at first sight they remind you of somebody else you don’t like. In any case, plenty of people have no respect for their neighbours or the environment around them – there’s nothing unusual about people who live in caravans. [li]_Most of us take our share of abuse from the ignorant_[/li]Perhaps I sound less like Jimmy Corkhill than **Merseybeat** does, but I’ve been on the receiving end of some ugly comments too. I can laugh at the scouser jokes if they’re told without malice, but often they’re not. [li]_I don’t believe that Irish people suffer more prejudice than other ethnic categories in the UK, but that doesn’t make it OK_[/li]Anything that encourages contempt for a group of people is unacceptable unless they are the ones with the power. You shouldn’t need the CRE to explain that – it’s common sense. [/ul] I didn’t see the show (on St. Pat’s of all days I had better places to be than sitting in front of a television at 10pm). Perhaps dickheads like Philip Green are unlikely to have been watching it either because I can’t imagine he’s exactly gay-friendly. Norton and Westlife can indeed fuck off but you’ll have to mail me when it happens ’cos I won’t be paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/94 "2003-03-20T14:38:44Z")
**L\_C** : They’re nice and fat in the Autumn. As to the taste, the clues in the name - hedge_hog_. But, like I said, a little bit stonger then pork. Mind you, I have only eaten it once or twice and that was over 20 years ago, so my memory may be off a little. On preview: Good post, **everton**. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/95 "2003-03-20T14:39:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by everton \* > \*\*_Graham Norton’s show isn’t worth watching anymore_ > …even if it ever was. He’s never been my cup of tea, but at least his show used to be original and inventive. Stretching it to five shows a week has spread the jam too thinly though. \*\* Graham used to be much funnier and much less insulting. I think trying to drag out one show’s worth of jokes to five shows has pushed him over the edge. If I hear one more Michael Douglas joke, I’m gonna spew. > [@](#): > > **_Westlife are simple-minded media whores_ > Their 15 minutes expired some time ago and I can’t imagine who would miss them if the gong sounded now. Blue anyone? Busted? There are plenty more cuddly toys on the conveyor belt.** I agree again. Westlife are an insult to Ireland just by existing. > [@](#): > > **_Most of us take our share of abuse from the ignorant_ > Perhaps I sound less like Jimmy Corkhill than Merseybeat does, but I’ve been on the receiving end of some ugly comments too. I can laugh at the scouser jokes if they’re told without malice, but often they’re not.** Any views on Harry Enfield’s depictions? “Are you fightin’?” “Are you askin’?” ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/96 "2003-03-20T14:58:39Z")
**Kal** : Thanks for your several informative posts on this thread. It’s true that I wouldn’t know a Pavee camp from a Roma one by sight, although I’d hazard a guess that the latter have had a travelling lifestyle since before English was a language and probably don’t accumulate piles of rubbish in the first place, let alone leave it in a stopping-place where (a) it would annoy the locals and (b) other Roma might be stopping some time. Of fair folk and circus folk I know next to nothing, and again, I’d assume that since their living depends to some extent on not making a bad name for themselves, on the whole they aim to cause no trouble, and judging by how seldom I hear any bad of them I’d guess that they succeed. As to bargees, I had no idea there still were any; and I’d have to live a lot nearer a major waterway to even notice them. Where I live (Norfolk) I see the occasional caravan that I take to be Romany; I think it’s the same one that I’ve seen on and off over the last five years or so - a little horse-drawn bow-topped thing (no idea what the right word is). Beyond thinking “How pretty”, and not staring too hard at what, after all, is someone’s home, and shutting off the throttle on my noisy vehicle so as not to frighten the horse, I’ve hardly given it a thought. I suppose, to an extent, I venerate the Romany lifestyle for its antiquity - even though I freely admit that all I really know about it could be painted on my garden shed with a three-inch brush and still leave room for Psalm 119. I can only reiterate that when I think of “Travellers” I make the same “Travellers-as-opposed-to-real-Gypsies” distinction that’s been stated earlier on this thread, and insofar as I ever use or understand the word “pikey”, it doesn’t apply to “real Gypsies”. (I’ll put in the :rolleyes: here and save you the trouble.) Well - I’ve shown off enough of my ignorance for now. I’ll shut up and listen. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/97 "2003-03-20T15:05:20Z")
And a **PS** : Can’t comment on hedgehogs, but I could just about live off roadkill pheasant in these parts if I were so minded. I’ve had the odd one, but Mrs M isn’t keen on the smell (and, raw, they do pong a bit after they’ve been hung a day or two). ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/98 "2003-03-20T15:27:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > \*\*Any views on Harry Enfield’s depictions? “Are you fightin’?” “Are you askin’?” \*\* Hmm, that’s an interesting one. I s’pose it doesn’t bother me much except that it became boring through repetition. Enfield might earn some of the blame for the bad rap we’ve taken over recent years, but I think it’s more that people who already wanted to slag us off used his characters as a kickoff point for impersonations. It’s a bit like the John Major impression Rory Bremner used to do – once you’ve heard it you too can “do” John Major. People who want to slag off Liverpool tend to wear their own ignorance like a badge in my experience (or else they’re from Manchester), so it’s not worth getting worked up about it. And anyway, there’s a shred of truth in the characters that serves a salutory lesson to a few people. It’s never a good idea to be a “professional” Scouser, Yorksireman, Scot, Cockney, American or whatever and that’s how I took Enfield’s jokes. If I was looking for an anti-scouse propagandist to hate it would be Carla Lane rather than Harry Enfield. Don’t get me started on fucking _Bread_ :mad:. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/99 "2003-03-20T16:26:57Z")
Regarding illegal sites and rubbish, I’ll quote from this [article](http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/travellers.htm), which is expanded version of a speech by Eli Frankham: > [@](#): > > A popular concept of a Gypsy camp is a roadside settlement littered and fouled, with no sanitation or refuse disposal. Filth and squalor unbridled. Everyone of you here can imagine it in your mind’s eye quite visibly, I am sure. The next part takes a bit more concentration. > > Imagine one of your council estates in the middle of town, before it becomes privatised, with it’s high concentration of children and household pets such as cats and dogs. Now imagine the water supply being disconnected, permanently, no more water on tap, no more hot baths, no more hot showers, no more toilets being flushed. Now imagine it’s road being torn up and the refuse disposal service being abolished, you now have no water, no road and your own litter in your house is in the garden. After four to five days the refuse bin is full, after a week it is overflowing with cats and dogs foraging around amongst it. The toilet is still not getting flushed, three days, three weeks, three months later. Can you now imagine it? Imagine it! You can almost smell it! After six months of council tenants or private house owners living in conditions like this, it would be the Gypsies down the road complaining to the authorities about the health hazards, the squalor and the filth which would be lowering the tone of their neighbourhood. > > I say to you, any encampment of Travellers without the basic facilities of water, sanitary and refuse disposal is an indictment of the local authorities who should have by law the legal obligation to supply such minimal services which every householder takes for granted and all too often would willingly deny to others. And also this, from [here:](http://www.cf.ac.uk/claws/tlru/bill.html) > [@](#): > > There are between 200,000 and 300,000 Travelling People in the United Kingdom. The majority of these people are Gypsies - whether English, Welsh or Scottish - and Irish Travellers, racial groups under the protection of the Race Relations Acts. At least 1/3 of these people have no safe, legal and secure stopping place, and many such people have no access to water, refuse disposal and other essential services. Regarding ‘Pikey’: A Google search for “pikey slang” will throw up a fair few results. It means a ‘Gypsy’ or vagabond. It also seems to now mean low-lifes in general so maybe the new definition should be “Gypsies, vagabonds and other assorted low-lifes”. It, and ‘Gyppo’ (it’s clear which group that word is aimed at) are becoming the British version of the American term ‘Trailer Trash’. A horse-drawn caravan is called a vardo or varda and they are not seen much anymore. I’d hazard a guess that most of them you see on the road are those I’ve seen on ‘Holiday’ or ‘Wish you were here’ that you can rent for a week. Finally, to **Infectious Lass** : > [@](#): > > I think Merseybeat is bewildered by you bringing in your political agendas about a completely seperate issue into this. It isn’t about _my_ political agenda (you’ll see that come April 8th - Roma Nation Day), it’s about fighting ignorance. It was said that there were sites provided for Travellers, I’ve shown that there ain’t enough. It was said that the term ‘Traveller’ has nothing to do with Romanies, I’ve shown (as has **Francesca** ) that it bloody well does. So, while I’ve fought ignorance, you’ve just posted a piece of crap that looks better suited for the letters page of your local newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145/100 "2003-03-20T17:03:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kal \* > \*\*So, while I’ve fought ignorance, you’ve just posted a piece of crap that looks better suited for the letters page of your local newspaper. \*\* [Looks like they have some space to fill too](http://www.stainesguardian.co.uk/views/index.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/graham-norton-hit-a-new-low-tonight/162145.md?page=6)