# GrahamWellington vs. Left Hand of Dorkness **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623 "2005-10-10T20:25:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/1 "2005-10-10T20:25:54Z")
[In this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=338009&page=1&pp=50), **Graham Wellington** has put forth several theories. I have argued that his evidence is unpersuasive; he has argued that I have shown intellectual incuriosity and narrowmindedness. (I believe that is his argument, and I invite him to correct me if I am mistaken). In [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6670608&postcount=161), he made the following comment: > [@Graham](#): > > If I didn’t think I would be too out of line, I’d love to post a question over in the General Questions Forum so that people unfamiliar with what’s happened here, i.e. me being bullied around in an atmosphere in which the mob psychology resents me for being so on the money about everyhing, … and let their unbiasness decide what constitutes the most solid form of methodology in searching for truth. And if it were to happen that they mostly come down agreeng that you and all your cronies are right – i.e. that standing mere words up against tangible materials (yes, even if I can’t hand them through the screen) is the better way – then I’d shut up and concede defeat. The several posts that followed this comment were negotiating a deal by which such a question would appear. This deal, to which he and I have both agreed, culminated in this post. If folks are interested in reading some or all of the attached thread and giving their feedback, the question is this: “Who do you think was arguing more fairly, logically, and persuasively in this thread: Left Hand of Dorkness, or Graham Wellington?” I believe that **Graham** sees [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6669536&postcount=131) as most clearly demonstrating the force of his argument over mine. As a side comment, I know this seems like a lame pitting; I am putting it in the Pit because it involves an issue I’m having with another Doper. Before you scold me for putting it here, I’d advise you to read the attached thread. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/2 "2005-10-10T20:28:56Z")
Before I even attempt to read that thread, someone reassure me that I don’t need to know who in the world Carlos Casteneda is. 'Cause I’ve been avoiding that sucker like the plague (the thread, not the unknown Carlos Casteneda). ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/3 "2005-10-10T20:32:27Z")
Frankly, I give you the nod simply because pretty much every single post I’ve seen from **Graham** has been sophomoric, poorly thought out, mental diarrhea. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/4 "2005-10-10T20:39:19Z")
In the thread, you never claimed to be on a personal mission from God or got hidden messages from movies about the Doors, so I’d have to say, just on those grounds alone, your argument is more logical. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/5 "2005-10-10T20:40:00Z")
You do not need to know who Carlos Casteneda is to read the thread. He’s a guy who wrote a series of book about meeting this old indian dude out in the desert, the indian being named Don Juan. And he had mystical experiences with the indian dude. The books as written bear very little resemblance to the actual mythology of the indian tribe Carlos claims Don Juan represents. Or, uh, any mythology of any indian tribe. At one point they turn into ravens, as I recall. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/6 "2005-10-10T20:40:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Before I even attempt to read that thread, someone reassure me that I don’t need to know who in the world Carlos Casteneda is. 'Cause I’ve been avoiding that sucker like the plague (the thread, not the unknown Carlos Casteneda). You don’t need to know. I picked up one of his books for a friend and stopped reading after the first page. It is made to convince those who want to believe in New Age stuff, instead of people who reason. Just read the original thread if you like reading a long argument. Oh, and my vote goes to **Dorkness**. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/7 "2005-10-10T20:41:59Z")
I’d give you the win. And not just because your opponent is, **at best** , batshit insane. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/8 "2005-10-10T20:47:10Z")
**Left Hand of Dorkness** by a mile. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/9 "2005-10-10T20:48:21Z")
you had me at > [@](#): > > i.e. me being bullied around in an atmosphere in which the mob psychology resents me for being so on the money about everyhing ah yes, the board indeed does gang up and resent folks who are “so on the money about everything”. eyup. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/10 "2005-10-10T20:51:35Z")
I have read the thread in question. It is quite hilarious. **Graham Wellington** doesn’t have even the faintest idea of what logic or a good argument is. Indeed, he seems to be an impervious-to-sense, willfully ignorant fellow, the likes of which we have not seen 'round these parts in quite a while. So, in answer to the question: **Left Hand of Dorkness** clearly "was arguing more fairly, logically, and persuasively ", because **Graham** doesn’t know how to do any of those things. Because he’s a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Lucretia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@Lucretia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucretia)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/11 "2005-10-10T20:56:36Z")
Having read that whole, painful thread, it’s obvious that your method it clearly more logical, **Left Hand of Dorkness**. It’s also quite obvious that **GrahamWellington** is mentally ill. That being the case, I’m afraid this thread has a little bit of an air of gloating because your report card is better than the developmentally disabled kid in class. It will do nothing to change **GrahamWellington’s** mind about his “evidence”, and only encourages people to be unkind to a vulnerable person. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/12 "2005-10-10T20:57:09Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > “Who do you think was arguing more fairly, logically, and persuasively in this thread: Left Hand of Dorkness, or Graham Wellington?” Easily **Left Hand of Dorkness**. Graham’s responses have not addressed points raised by LHOD; in contrast, LHOD has answered points raised by Graham. Graham shows no understanding of carrying the burden of proof, or what constitutes a prima facie showing of a particular point. Graham’s insistence that his point cannot be so much as described unless the listener is willing to read the book, rent the Doors movie, and who knows what else, is absurd. At the very least, he should be able to make an offer of proof: “If you follow the book, and watch the moviw, you will see X, Y, and Z. These, taken together, will prove A, B, and C.” So… LHOD in a landslide. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/13 "2005-10-10T21:09:02Z")
> [@Lucretia](#): > > That being the case, I’m afraid this thread has a little bit of an air of gloating because your report card is better than the developmentally disabled kid in class. It will do nothing to change **GrahamWellington’s** mind about his “evidence”, and only encourages people to be unkind to a vulnerable person. I hope **Graham** is okay with me making limited responses inthis thread, like this one: **Lucretia** , I’d like you to consider the secondary deal we made, on the last page of that thread. That secondary deal, and the goal behind it, comprises my major motivation behind starting this thread. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/14 "2005-10-10T21:22:49Z")
**Lefty** , you linked to a post by\*\* This \*\* **Years Model** to illustrate **Graham’s** best argument. On purpose? **Graham,** I think you will find I have done my fair share of arguing with **Lefty**. Furthermore, I have no doubt at your honesty in making this statement – > [@](#): > > And frankly, I’d be pretty concerned about you and all the mods and those that you’ve befriended over the span of time that you’ve been posting in this wonderful place, as you people might be a little tempted to have others make sure that the tally comes out in your favor. Sorry for saying that, just being honest. – but let me assure you that you are wrong. The better arguments win out, not the most popular posters. And speaking of arguments, you ain’t got one. Sincerely, nothing you posted in that thread constituted an argument, (and I did read the whole thing) unless you are relying on some kind of Monty Python definition. **tomndebb** is a very fair moderator. If you stick around you will realize that. He would not punish you for disagreeing with him. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/15 "2005-10-10T21:28:17Z")
Uhhhh… you’re trying to convince someone who quite likely has paranoid delusions that he’s wrong by demonstrating how many people are lined up in opposition to his arguments? Seriously, I applaud you for jerking the thread in question into a new and different direction, but do you really think this will be effective? Or wise? Maybe it’s just me, but I’m…skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/16 "2005-10-10T21:30:05Z")
> [@Ferret Herder](#): > > **Left Hand of Dorkness** by a mile. And a Half. And I didn’t get past the first page. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/17 "2005-10-10T21:30:50Z")
P.S. My post was a vote for **Lefty** if that was not clear. I only argue with him when he’s wrong. 🙂 _Hijack_– **Lefty** Thanks for the Pinker reference. You have given me a great deal to think about, I have pretty much come around to your way of thinking, with a few quibbles.–_Hijack._ ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/18 "2005-10-10T21:32:14Z")
what **Lucretia** said. **LHOD** is arguing better, but threads encouraging people to pick on others are not something I wish to endorse. Still, as long as I did go read pages 2-4 of the linked thread, I might as well vote. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/19 "2005-10-10T21:39:00Z")
Is the “dance like a monkey” bit a part of the bet? No? Well, in that case I’ve got to go with **LHoD**. **Graham** , I sincerely hope you will honor your part of the deal. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623/20 "2005-10-10T21:45:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’d give you the win. > > And not just because your opponent is, **at best** , batshit insane. Well, if **that** is the only criterion… 😃 **LHoD** by a furlong and a half. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grahamwellington-vs-left-hand-of-dorkness/325623.md?page=2)