Grammar again: "we" or "us"

I agree, Polycarp. I brought up the distinction between than as a preposition and than as a disjunction to justify an existing usage, not to constrain usage in general. When language and usage change, the grammatical systems likewise change.

As if that point even had to be made…

Everyone, please forgive my excessive postings on these matters. :slight_smile:

MR

“I look” present tense. “I am looking” present participle.
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No, that’s not right. looking is a present participle. I am looking is a present tense verb with a progressive/repeating aspect.

I think you are misunderstanding what a nominative is. A nominative can only be a noun or adjective that can appropriately be used as the subject of a sentence.

Strictly speaking, “this is I” would be correct, since you are using a copula. But if you are using a demonstrative adjective/pronoun (like this or that), things change. I don’t really know why. In French, you don’t say “C’est je,” you say “c’est moi.” You are right about adding the comma, though. That makes it work, because an accusative/objective participle takes the same form as a nominative one. “This is me, looking up at the Eiffel Tower” would probably be ok, too.

“Upon whom can we rely” is correct, and “who can we rely upon” is absolutely incorrect. But since usage eventually makes grammar, it might not be too much longer before the latter is correct and the former is not.

MR **
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I should have said “predicate nominative,” or “objective case” instead of just nominative. But I’m glad that you agree a comma makes the sentence palatable.

As to “who” and “whom,” I refer you to A Dictionary of Contemporary American usage, by the Evanses. Page 556: "If English followed the rules of Latin grammar we would use the form whom whenever the word was the object of a verb or preposition and the form who (or whose) in all other situations. But this is not the way these words are used in English…Sentences such ss - whom are you looking for? - and - whom do you mean? - are unnatural English and have been for at least five hundred years…Noah Webster vigorously opposed [whom]. He wrote: - Whom did you speak to? - ws never used in speaking…and is hardly English at all. - He goes on to say that this whom must be the invention of Latin students who had not given much thought to English, and concludes - At any rate, whom did you speak to? is a corruption and all the grammars that can be found will not extend the use of the prhase beyond the walls of a college -

“The literary tradition was with Webster and against the Latinists and this use of whom never became standard English. Today the form who is preferred when the word stands before a verb, as in - who did you see? - The form whom is required when the word follows a preposition, as in - to whom did you sepak? - but this is an unnatural interrogative word order. The form whom may be usedd, but is not equired, when it follows the verb, as in - you sw whom? - A few p;;eople habitually observe the eighteenth century rules of grammar, but this is likely to be a disadvantage to them. To most of their countrymen, the unnatural whom’s sound priggish or pretentious.”

I’m sorry for the dashes in lieu of single quotes and lack of italics, but I am unable to make those marks on this computer, or if I can, I know not how.

Well, we agreed with those examples. I suspect that you and me will not agree about the grammaticality of some sentences. Such as the previous one.

Yes, I should have indicated I meant in the sentence in my post immediately above that one. You know, the one that’s been discussed several times in this thread.

The example was neither a predicate nominative nor an objective case. I am not sure what you are talking about anymore.

As for who and whom…I refer you to the Oxford English Dictionary, in which the distinction between the nominative and oblique cases is preserved. Whose authority is greater?

dtilque

And you would be right. :wink:

Hey, you quoted a passage and claimed to identify it. I can only read your text, not your mind.

MR

Since Bergan Evans isn’t good enough to quote, I will quote from William Safire, who has already been acknowledged as an expert in this thread. From “What’s the Good Word?”

“The subjective form should be used only when the word looks and sounds like the subject. But when it looks like the object, use the objective. If anybody demands to know who told you to do this horrible deed, tell them it was me.”

Two Harvard students are in their room when a kock is heard.
“Who’s there?” asks one.
“It’s me,” comes the reply.
One student looks at the other and says, “It can’t be anybody we know.”

Far Side cartoon: The Founding Fathers are sitting 'round the table writing the US constitution. “Now should it be ‘Us the people’ or ‘We the people’?”