# Grammar question: A and not B is OR A and not B are? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 8, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-a-and-not-b-is-or-a-and-not-b-are/630824 "2012-08-08T04:02:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-a-and-not-b-is-or-a-and-not-b-are/630824/41 "2012-08-10T17:59:44Z")
> [@Floater](#): > > Besides, I don’t know Latin, but if I understand correctly word order doesn’t matter, so wouldn’t this rule be erroneous anyway? My understanding is that not ending a sentence in a preposition is pretty much the only rule of word order in Latin. I don’t know why; I’m not a Latin speaker either. As Senegoid pointed out, the rule on not splitting infinitives is easier to explain; it’s impossible to do in Latin because infinitives are a single word. In English, infinitives are two words but Latin-influenced scholars invented a rule that if it couldn’t be done in Latin, it shouldn’t be done in English. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-a-and-not-b-is-or-a-and-not-b-are/630824/42 "2012-08-13T08:23:21Z")
After I had written my question I suddenly remembered the phrase _“Vade me cum”_, “Go with me”, so obviously there is no such rule. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-a-and-not-b-is-or-a-and-not-b-are/630824/43 "2012-08-13T16:59:57Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Similarly, the admonition not to ever split an infinitive comes from overly purist English teachers trying to prissily apply Latin grammar. In Latin of course, and other languages derived therefrom, you _can’t_ split an infinitive because it’s all one word! In English, that space in the middle of an infinitive is often the most natural-sounding place to easily stick a modifier! I guess that means no one ever said whatever the equivalent of “Laud f\*cking are” is in Latin? ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-a-and-not-b-is-or-a-and-not-b-are/630824/44 "2012-08-13T17:06:16Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Grammar is not the same as Syntax. It is a syntax rule, for example, that you cannot end a sentence with a preposition. When the boy’s father came into his room at bed time carrying a book about kangaroos, the little boy said “Daddy, why’d you bring that book I didn’t want to be read to from about Down Under up for?” (And yes I realize “Down Under” is really a noun in that construction.) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-a-and-not-b-is-or-a-and-not-b-are/630824/45 "2012-08-13T19:01:43Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > When the boy’s father came into his room at bed time carrying a book about kangaroos, the little boy said “Daddy, why’d you bring that book I didn’t want to be read to from about Down Under up for?” > > (And yes I realize “Down Under” is really a noun in that construction.) A variation without the questionable “Down Under” construct: Daddy, what did you bring the book that I didn’t want to be read to out of up for? Runner-up: I’ve got to run now, and go home to put what I’m going out in on. (As best I can recall, I got these from Herb Caen’s column in the S. F. Chron, 30-some years ago.) ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-a-and-not-b-is-or-a-and-not-b-are/630824/46 "2012-08-13T21:06:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Upon reading other posts, I’m rethinking this. The “A and not B” made me think of this as a logical expression. But the examples given of balls and boxes are just normal English. > > In routine usage, the subject of “The ball and not the box is red” would be “The ball”. “And not the box” is an adjective clause. bingo ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-a-and-not-b-is-or-a-and-not-b-are/630824/47 "2012-08-13T21:14:31Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > It is a syntax rule, for example, that you cannot end a sentence with a preposition. That is a rule up with which I will not put. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-a-and-not-b-is-or-a-and-not-b-are/630824/48 "2012-08-13T21:18:27Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > This is why, for example, a word like _family_ is singular in the U.S. and plural in Britain. That’s simply a grammatical convention, and can’t be explained, justified or better understood by way of formal logic. That’s because those Brits are just plain smarter than we are. At least, they’re more consistent. We say “IBM wants to sell us services.” But then we go on to say, “They want to start with a 1-year contract.” Well, are they they, or is it it? We silly Yanks just can’t make up our minds. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-a-and-not-b-is-or-a-and-not-b-are/630824/49 "2012-08-13T21:22:48Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Daddy, what did you bring the book that I didn’t want to be read to out of up for? > > Runner-up: I’ve got to run now, and go home to put what I’m going out in on. Those are a hoot! (Oops, those are hoots.) This reminds me of the old saw about the professor lecturing in German, ending his lecture with a long list of verbs. Or was that Yoda? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-a-and-not-b-is-or-a-and-not-b-are/630824/50 "2012-08-14T17:52:21Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > **Those are a hoot! (Oops, those are hoots.)** Depending on their total hootworthiness. The two examples together could add up to one hoot, or they could each independently be an individual hoot, for a total of two hoots. If one is easily amused, then I suppose each terminal preposition alone is worth a hoot. If I’ve counted aright, that gives us 8 hoots in those two examples. If Johnny has 8 hoots and he gives a hoot, how many hoots does Johnny have left? Are hoots conserved? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-a-and-not-b-is-or-a-and-not-b-are/630824.md?page=2)