# Grammar question about possessives **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 26, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499 "2020-05-26T16:35:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/1 "2020-05-26T16:35:28Z")
I just came across this caption (more or less) in an Atlantic Magazine article about Philip Roth: _A sketch drawn by a friend of the artist’s_ It’s hard to believe such an august publication would let a blatant error slip through, so I’m inclined to believe that the above construction is correct. But boy does it sound wrong to me. Why is it not “a sketch drawn by a friend of the artist”? Think of it this way: you could write _We went for a walk at day’s end._ Or you could write _We went for a walk at the end of the day._ But surely you wouldn’t say _We went for a walk at the end of the day’s._ If it is really correct to write “a friend of the artist’s,” can someone explain why, and advise on whether “a friend of the artist” is an acceptable alternative? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/2 "2020-05-26T16:45:52Z")
As a grammar-Nazi, I agree with you. It should have been _A sketch drawn by a friend of the artist_ Although it’s unusual to find this in the _Atlantic_, I often see similar errors where it appears that the author looked at a sentence from the start to the middle, then again from the middle to the end. Perhaps he was interrupted between scans, but each scan produced a different result. Concatenate the scans and you have a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/3 "2020-05-26T17:22:53Z")
The double genitive has a long history in English; if you can find the last thread on the subject, I quoted the relevant explanation from the Oxford English Dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/4 "2020-05-26T17:26:31Z")
It’s a double genitive and it’s correct. One suggestion I’ve heard is to replace the possessive noun with a pronoun. \*“A sketch drawn by a friend of me” - ick bad no bueno “A sketch drawn by a friend of mine” - ahh satisfying crisp refreshing If the pronoun should be possessive, then the noun should be too. I don’t necessarily hold with that and if people don’t want to use the double genitive, that’s fine by me. But from a prescriptivist standpoint, the double genitive is ‘Proper English’. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/5 "2020-05-26T17:35:31Z")
I think there are a lot of quirks with possessive expressions that sound better one way and not the other - sometimes strictly so - and it’s quite difficult to analyze why. My own preferences in square brackets. Setting aside any technical analysis, I’d be interested if people agree with my intuition on which of these sound okay. (My dialect is British, born in west London.) \*\*I’m a friend of the artist’s. \*\* [disfavored, but not wrong] **I’m a friend of the artist.** [favored] _but without the definite article, my preferences are reversed:_ **I’m a friend of Steve’s.** [correct, and colloquially preferred] **I’m a friend of Steve.** [correct] Then consider these: **That’s one of Steve’s friends.** [correct] **That’s a friend of Steve’s.** [correct] **That’s a friend of Steve.** [correct] **That’s one of Steve’s dogs.** [correct] ? **That’s a dog of Steve’s.** [okay, I think?] \ ***That’s a dog of Steve.** [wrong - but why?] **That’s Steve’s house.** [correct] \ ***That’s the house of Steve.** [wrong, but why?] **That’s the house of Steve and his family.** [now correct, but why?] By correct/wrong I’m talking about whether I would ever say it this way. I think gramatically all of these are technically fine. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/6 "2020-05-26T17:51:19Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > \ ***That’s a dog of Steve.** [wrong - but why?] Because a dog cannot be modified by “Steve” in this case? (Cf. “a picture of Steve”, “a dog of character”) > [@](#): > > **That’s Steve’s house.** [correct] > \ ***That’s the house of Steve.** [wrong, but why?] Is it totally wrong? Cf “House of Lancaster” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/7 "2020-05-26T18:09:33Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Is it totally wrong? Cf “House of Lancaster” But it only seems okay in that rather arcane special context. If I were driving with a friend and wanted to point out who owned that house: \*_That’s Steve’s house. That’s the house of Steve. That’s the house of Steve and his family._ The second one is wrong for some reason. On the other hand, if it’s someone famous, and it’s “home” instead of “house”: **That’s Bruce Springsteen’s home. That’s the home of Bruce Springsteen.** Now they are both fine! ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/8 "2020-05-26T20:28:48Z")
I some grammar book (sorry, I don’t recall which) I read a longish discussion of the so-called double genitive, reaching no definitive conclusion. It has a long history in English as noted above. Go with what feels right to you and will not err. For myself I generally use it. Most people believe that grammar is a set of rules, laid down by a higher authority that gives an infallible answer to every such question. It is not. It is a description of how people actually speak the language. Don’t get me started on “I shall” vs. “I will”. Or putting that period before the quote mark. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/9 "2020-05-26T22:21:14Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Although it’s unusual to find this in the _Atlantic_, I often see similar errors where it appears that the author looked at a sentence from the start to the middle, then again from the middle to the end. Perhaps he was interrupted between scans, but each scan produced a different result. Concatenate the scans and you have a mistake. Another possibility is that the sentence previously read something like: _The sketch was done by the artist’s friend John Doe._ But an editor revised it, and left it as “artist’s”, even though the words were split up. Such editors changes are often done in haste, to fit into a space or to remove extra detail. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/10 "2020-05-27T17:46:13Z")
This must be a pet peeve of you. ---
**Author:** ![Author\_Balk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Author\_Balk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Author_Balk)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/11 "2020-05-27T17:59:14Z")
How about… A guy who is a jerk has two donkeys. How would you describe the rear end of the donkeys? Is it: An ass’s asses’ asses That is - Singular possessive, plural possessive, plural noun ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/12 "2020-05-27T18:06:40Z")
> [@Author\_Balk](#): > > How about… A guy who is a jerk has two donkeys. How would you describe the rear end of the donkeys? Is it: > > An ass’s asses’ asses > > That is - Singular possessive, plural possessive, plural noun If the jerk is from upstate New York, perhaps Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo not only Buffalo buffalo, but also the Buffalo ass’s asses’ asses. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/13 "2020-05-27T20:57:03Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > This must be a pet peeve of you. Bingo! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-about-possessives/854499/14 "2020-05-27T22:50:25Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > The double genitive has a long history in English; if you can find the last thread on the subject, I quoted the relevant explanation from the Oxford English Dictionary. Here’s the thread: [“I’m a friend of Bill’s.” You’re a friend of Bill’s what?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=867070) **DPRK** ’s comments are at posts 6 and 9.