# Grammar question: Dropping "to be" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 9, 2008, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877 "2008-02-09T00:42:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/1 "2008-02-09T00:42:01Z")
I have a grammar question that has been bugging me for a while: People who drop the verb “to be” from their conversation and writing. Is there a specific American dialect that does this? Here is an example, from a recent thread in MPSIMS: > [@](#): > > Because the kitchen needs organized so the plates remain until that happens which of course never happens. I am not picking on this poster; I just ran across the quote and it reminded me to create this thread. Isn’t the “proper” American English, “Because the kitchen needs **to be** organized so…” ? I have heard this particular language tic from quite a few people, and wonder if there is a specific subset of the population (regionally, or culturally) from which it comes. Any ideas? Or am I way off base about the appropriate use of “to be”? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/2 "2008-02-09T00:43:33Z")
[QUOTE=Necros] Is there a specific American dialect that does this? [/QUOTE] Yes, I believe it’s a feature of a dialect in Pennsylvania. edit:[Apparently it is also present in Scottish dialects and parts of Ohio.](http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0301e&L=ads-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=2943) ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/3 "2008-02-09T00:47:18Z")
Western areas, too. I think it’s ultimately a German construction (I have inlaws who say, “The floor needs washed”). ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/4 "2008-02-09T01:05:18Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] Yes, I believe it’s a feature of a dialect in Pennsylvania. [/QUOTE] Seconded. I had never in my life heard this construction until I started working for someone who grew up in Pennsylvania. For some time after I started working for her, I was unsure if maybe she wasn’t a part-time [E-primer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-prime). ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_of\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@Sock\_of\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_of_Doom)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/5 "2008-02-09T01:18:49Z")
As far as I know, it’s Western Pennsylvania and Southeastern Ohio. Basically anywhere within a few hours of Pittsburgh. Don’t even get me started on “Yinz.” ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/6 "2008-02-09T01:22:19Z")
And what about the rest of the OP’s sentence? Is that syntax a regionalism as well? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/7 "2008-02-09T01:27:42Z")
I’ve seen it commonly used by a writer friend from Des Moines and a few people from that area I know through him. It appears in both his personal writing and the speech of his characters (also of Iowan origin) in stories. I don’t know if he’s originally from there or not, though. The regional usage of this question needs researched! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_of\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@Sock\_of\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_of_Doom)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/8 "2008-02-09T01:47:38Z")
> [@](#): > > like, need, or want + past participle (Murray, Frazer and Simon 1996; Tenny 1998; McElhinny 1999; Murray and Simon 1999; Montgomery 2001; Johnstone, Bhasin and Wittkofski 2002; Murray and Simon 2002; Wisnosky 2003; Johnstone and Baumgardt 2004; Johnstone, Andrus and Danielson 2006). > > **Examples: “Babies like cuddled”; “The car needs washed”; “The cat wants petted.”** From the wikipedia article on [Pittsburgh English](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_English). Normally I don’t trust wikipedia, but these references look good. Pittsburgh is full of interesting regionalisms. I actually like a few of them, such as “slippy” instead of “slippery.” It sounds more like sliding to me. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/9 "2008-02-09T01:55:05Z")
[QUOTE=Sock of Doom] From the wikipedia article on [Pittsburgh English](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_English). Normally I don’t trust wikipedia, but these references look good. Pittsburgh is full of interesting regionalisms. I actually like a few of them, such as “slippy” instead of “slippery.” It sounds more like sliding to me. [/QUOTE] Hows about “nebby”? ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/10 "2008-02-09T01:58:50Z")
Or not? If that is the question… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/11 "2008-02-09T04:24:34Z")
[QUOTE=SmartAleq] Or not? If that is the question… 😉 [/QUOTE] Yinz should not vaunt to make proud contumely Of Pittsburgh speech; else some proud Pittsburgh Doper Might thy quietus make with a bare bodkin. Who would fardels bear 'gainst that noble dialect? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/12 "2008-02-09T04:40:09Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] Yinz should not vaunt to make proud contumely Of Pittsburgh speech; else some proud Pittsburgh Doper Might thy quietus make with a bare bodkin. Who would fardels bear 'gainst that noble dialect? [/QUOTE] Oh, go 'red up your room… ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/13 "2008-02-09T18:08:23Z")
Is it really a dropped infinitive or a substitute for a gerund? When I’m done cringing after hearing such a construct, I always imagine that “the floor needs washing” rather than “to be washed.” In fact, I’d regard that as a more standard construct, at least in my own little region of the English-speaking world. ---
**Author:** ![ASAKMOTSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ASAKMOTSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASAKMOTSD)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/14 "2008-02-09T18:19:08Z")
[QUOTE=Sock of Doom] Pittsburgh is full of interesting regionalisms. [/QUOTE] I have always maintained that was because it took so long for them to bore those holes through the mountains to escape. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/15 "2008-02-09T18:39:14Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] Yinz should not vaunt to make proud contumely Of Pittsburgh speech; else some proud Pittsburgh Doper Might thy quietus make with a bare bodkin. Who would fardels bear 'gainst that noble dialect? [/QUOTE] You’d be hard put to bear a fardel against anything - it’s a burden, a pack, a parcel. (OED). \*What, dost thou nitpick me, sirrah? Ay, sir, I nitpick thee! \* 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/16 "2008-02-09T19:11:06Z")
[QUOTE=Balthisar] Is it really a dropped infinitive or a substitute for a gerund? When I’m done cringing after hearing such a construct, I always imagine that “the floor needs washing” rather than “to be washed.” In fact, I’d regard that as a more standard construct, at least in my own little region of the English-speaking world. [/QUOTE] Yes. I grew up in NW PA, and catch myself saying things like “That house needs painted.” sometimes. That particular usage made it out into the sticks. A lot of other stuff associated with “Burghese” stayed in the city. I don’t say “warshed” for “washed”, either. That’s something I associate with the coal country in southern PA. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/17 "2008-02-09T20:15:12Z")
I think good riddance. Who needs those two syllables anyway? (Same thing if you say it should be, “the house needs organizing”) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/18 "2008-02-09T22:12:18Z")
[QUOTE=yabob] Yes. I grew up in NW PA, and catch myself saying things like “That house needs painted.” sometimes. [/QUOTE] Ya know, I have no connection to the Pittsburgh area, but ever since reading about this construction on the Dope years ago, and then noticing it elsewhere, I find myself using the construction every once in a while. I like it for some reason. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/19 "2008-02-09T23:44:10Z")
'Burgh doper here. It’s a dropped gerund for sure. When I say “My car needs washed.”, what I mean is “My car needs washing”. I’ve never noticed it before. Thanks for pointing it out. From **Sock of Doom** ’s link: "from German, falling intonation at the end of questions with a definite yes or no answer “. This is news to me. Doesn’t everyone say"What IS it?” Is this not what they’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877/20 "2008-02-09T23:51:16Z")
Hm… I wonder if this is a typical German/English construction? It would give a little local color and realism to something I’m writing, if so. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-dropping-to-be/436877.md?page=2)