# Grammar Question: Fewer vs less than **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 21, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-fewer-vs-less-than/381292 "2006-11-21T15:27:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-fewer-vs-less-than/381292/21 "2006-11-22T01:59:05Z")
[QUOTE=Jamaika a jamaikaiaké] I guess this might be right for formal written language (the signs at Target). However, I still would like to claim that, spoken, both would be equally correct. [/QUOTE] They are NOT equally “correct.” They are, however, these days, used interchangeably. In some future time, when we have managed to totally bastardize our quite eloquent language, they may both be equally “correct.” In short, saying “ten items or less” is not grammatically correct, but you will be understood, and most won’t notice your error. Saying “ten items or fewer” will be mostly correct (better would be ‘fewer than 10 items’), but many will look at the sign quizzically, wondering who was being so stuffy with their language… :o ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-fewer-vs-less-than/381292/22 "2006-11-22T02:27:57Z")
I’ve still not seen a clear, unambiguous, and universally applicable rule expressed on this board. I think I have it, though: Rule: When you are choosing between saying “fewer X” or “less X” for some word “X,” if “X” is in the plural, then use “fewer,” while if X is in the singular, use “less.” Analogous rules for usages like “ten or less” or “ten or fewer,” can easily be constructed. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-fewer-vs-less-than/381292/23 "2006-11-22T02:28:31Z")
Sorry, Poly, but you’re wrong here. Calories are grammatically plural, just as gallons or yards are, even when they’re measure something that is not, itself, physically divided into discrete parts. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-fewer-vs-less-than/381292/24 "2006-11-22T02:49:38Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] They are NOT equally “correct.” They are, however, these days, used interchangeably. In some future time, when we have managed to totally bastardize our quite eloquent language, they may both be equally “correct.” In short, saying “ten items or less” is not grammatically correct, but you will be understood, and most won’t notice your error. Saying “ten items or fewer” will be mostly correct (better would be ‘fewer than 10 items’), but many will look at the sign quizzically, wondering who was being so stuffy with their language… :o [/QUOTE] Are they not equally correct just because you say so? Do you know that less has been used to describe denumerable/countable nouns since at least 888AD according to [OED](http://dictionary.oed.com.ezproxy.its.nyu.edu/cgi/entry/50132073?query_type=word&queryword=less&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&result_place=1&search_id=m843-gQs1al-16380&hilite=50132073) (link requires registration, sorry) How can something be grammatically correct, but widely understood and most won’t notice the ‘error’? What exactly is your definition of grammatical? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-fewer-vs-less-than/381292/25 "2006-11-22T13:05:24Z")
[QUOTE=Jamaika a jamaikaiaké] Are they not equally correct just because you say so? Do you know that less has been used to describe denumerable/countable nouns since at least 888AD according to [OED](http://dictionary.oed.com.ezproxy.its.nyu.edu/cgi/entry/50132073?query_type=word&queryword=less&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&result_place=1&search_id=m843-gQs1al-16380&hilite=50132073) (link requires registration, sorry) How can something be grammatically correct, but widely understood and most won’t notice the ‘error’? What exactly is your definition of grammatical? [/QUOTE] Well, for example, what is taught to be correct in style manuals, grammar books, etc. Try, for example, these exerpts: [The Columbia Guide to Standard English](http://www.bartleby.com/68/20/3620.html) [The American Heritage® Book of English Usage.](http://www.bartleby.com/64/C003/0123.html) Or, try [this quote from the 1918 version of _The Elements of Style_](http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk3.html) by William Funk, Jr.: > [@](#): > > **Less**. Should not be misused for fewer. > > He had less men than in the previous campaign. > > He had fewer men than in the previous campaign. > > Less refers to quantity, fewer to number. “His troubles are less than mine” means “His troubles are not so great as mine.” “His troubles are fewer than mine” means “His troubles are not so numerous as mine.” It is, however, correct to say, "The signers of the petition were less than a hundred, "where the round number, a hundred, is something like a collective noun, and less is thought of as meaning a less quantity or amount. I can continue endlessly if you prefer… ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-fewer-vs-less-than/381292/26 "2006-11-22T13:07:12Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Well, for example, what is taught to be correct in style manuals, grammar books, etc. Try, for example, these exerpts: [The Columbia Guide to Standard English](http://www.bartleby.com/68/20/3620.html) [The American Heritage® Book of English Usage.](http://www.bartleby.com/64/C003/0123.html) Or, try [this quote from the 1918 version of _The Elements of Style_](http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk3.html) by William Funk, Jr.:I can continue endlessly if you prefer… [/QUOTE] In the quote from Funk, the two examples are meant to contrast the incorrect usage of less with the correct usage of fewer. It didn’t quite carry over in the formatting; see the link I gave to understand what was being done. \ ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-fewer-vs-less-than/381292/27 "2006-11-22T14:04:43Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] Sorry, Poly, but you’re wrong here. Calories are grammatically plural, just as gallons or yards are, even when they’re measure something that is not, itself, physically divided into discrete parts. [/QUOTE] True, “calories” is a plural noun, and good oranges have a tart, sweet taste. Neither of which have anything to do with substance vs. object. Gallons, calories, yards, etc., are quasi-arbitrary units of measure. They describe the measurement of a substance of which you may have a given quantity, or more or less than that quantity. On the other hand, dozen, score, myriad, etc., are nouns that quantify countable objects. One may have more or fewer objects than the quantification. “Though Dalmatia is a narrow coastal region with very little land area, it produced slightly less than half of Yugoslavia’s annual wine production. The Dalmatian dialect, however, is nearly extinct; fewer than 100 people still speak it.” It matters not whether the wine is measured in gallons, hogsheads, litres, standard-size glasses, or Old Latvian mirkeks. The people, however, are individuals who can be counted. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-fewer-vs-less-than/381292/28 "2006-11-22T16:42:54Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Or, try [this quote from the 1918 version of _The Elements of Style_](http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk3.html) by William Funk, Jr. [/QUOTE] This is the same book that says: > [@](#): > > [VI. WORDS OFTEN MISSPELLED - Collection at Bartleby.com](http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk4.html) > Write to-day, to-night, to-morrow (but not together) with hyphen. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-fewer-vs-less-than/381292/29 "2006-11-23T16:01:07Z")
[QUOTE=Terminus Est] This is the same book that says: :dubious: [/QUOTE] My point was to show that in 1918, there was an almost absolute prohibition given to the misuse of “less”, whereas you will see that later style manuals talk about it as a question of “proper” versus “popular” usage. Lot’s of people use the contraction “amn’t”, except they use an improper form of it (I leave it as an exercise for the reader to know what form). It ain’t right to do so, no matter how many people do it. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-fewer-vs-less-than/381292.md?page=1)