Grammar question -- multiple possessives

Factual Questions
41

You’re very hung up on whether the form “me’s” is a word. hazel never claimed that “me’s” is a word, and linguistically, it is of no relevance, since it is only a matter of convention that in written English symbols are grouped and separated by spaces to form “words”.

All native speakers, whether educated or not, have a grammar in their heads that allows them to construct sentences in their native language. This grammar has little to do with style guides.

The inconsistency is as follows:

Usually, we distinguish between
A) Ann and Betty’s cats
B) Ann’s and Betty’s cats

where A) refers to cats owned by Ann and Betty, and B) refers to cats owned by Ann and cats owned by Betty.

In this case, your style guide recommends:
C) Bill’s and my car

Now, suppose there is more than one car, the style guide would prescribe:
C1) Bill’s and my cars

We don’t know whether it is the cars belonging to Bill and me (shared ownership), or the car(s) belonging to Bill and the car(s) belonging to me.

Therefore, to avoid sounding silly, we have suppressed a useful distinction and re-introduced ambiguity.

Finally, when you add apostrophe-s to a noun phrase to make a possessive form, it is indeed the whole noun phrase whose case is changed. Note the difference between
A) the ((big boat)'s) wheel
B) the big (boat’s) wheel.

42

If it’s not a word, then it cannot be considered as a “solution” to this problem. It’s really as simple as that. This is why in correct English, people don’t make up words to suit their needs.

Perhaps it would, but to avoid the ambiguity all one would need to do is recast the sentence so that the meaning was clarified. Inventing words is not a solution.

At any rate, that’s an ambiguity, not an inconsistency. The style book was treating the different situations differently, that’s all.

In each of those sentences, the boat - and only the boat - is doing the possessing. The wheel is not, and certainly “big” is not, since it is an adjective. (An ambiguity would arise if “big” were replaced by another noun, thereby creating a compound noun. In that instance, a hyphen joining the two nouns would suffice, with the apos-s going after the second noun.)

Adjectives cannot possess anything. Only a noun or a pronoun can, strictly speaking. Not an adjectival phrase.

(An exception is the compound possessive: “my child’s teacher’s name.”)

Since it is unclear whether the boat or the wheel is big, the sentence must be recast accordingly:

a) The big boat’s wheel
b) The big wheel of the boat
c) The big wheel of the big boat

43

I really don’t understand how this thread has kept going. We have an answer. dantheman is correct and has a cite. enderX has provided the same answer, and a cite. Despite this, we have people making up (non) words as alternatives. Please provide cites for these (non) words, and you might begin to change my opinion.

“me’s” as a possessive is as valid as “I’s”, “he’s” and “it’s” as possessives. The fact that “me” is associated with another word (sister) makes no difference.

And it is ludicrous to object to “sister’s” on the grounds that people increasingly use an apostrophe before an “s” used as a plural. We should not modify correct usage of English in order to differentiate it more clearly from an abuse of English.

44

Me’s, I’s, he’s, it’s are incorrect uses of a possessive. It’s very WRONG…

Instead of me’s and I’s, say my. Example: “I put me’s books in I’s bag” is wrong, but “I put my books in my bag” is correct.

He’s is a short form for “He is”. “His” is the right way of saying that such and such belongs to him.

The same goes for “it’s”… It’s means “it is”… “Its” means “such and such belongs to it”…
Final word: me’s is wrong. My is right.

45

Well, not to be argumentative amarone, but dantheman is in fact wrong. enderX’s cite is also wrong. This is not shocking… style guides, dictionaries and grammar textbooks routinely contain errors about usage. Also, headless phrases (such as the one we are talking about) are particularly thorny in English. I’m giving you the Straight Dope here from a linguist.

The possessive (which is written as apostrophe-s) in English attaches to noun phrases, not nouns themselves. Some noun phrases merely consist of a lone noun, but that does not change the rule in English… the possessive attaches to a noun phrase.

The whole thread is an exercise in why this difference is not a trivial one. A lot of you continue to analyze the phrase in question incorrectly. The apostrophe-s is not attached to the pronoun me, it is attached to the noun phrase my sister and me which happens to end with me. I’ll bracket the phrase analysis again for a visual aid:

RIGHT: { [my sister] and [me] } 's cats

WRONG: { my sister } and { me } 's cats

Now, nobody would say “me’s cats” by itself, because when a pronoun by itself takes the possessive, we have some possessive pronouns we use instead of the “add -s” rule. So of course we’d say “my cats.” But in the phrase “my sister and me’s cats” me is a not a pronoun by itself, it’s part of a noun phrase. Since the noun phrase is not a pronoun by itself, we make it possessive by adding -s. Don’t get hung up on the fact that as written it looks like the apostrophe-s is merely attached to me. It is not.

Many of you have offered alternate ways of saying the same thing. As I said, most of them are also grammatically correct, but sound awkward (to me) and perhaps more important, introduce unnecessary ambiguity.

-fh

46

To hazel-rah…

"RIGHT: { [my sister] and [me] } 's cats

WRONG: { my sister } and { me } 's cats"

When we write, we don’t brackets, as we do in math. So both sentences would read:
“my sister and me’s cats”
As many have argued, the above sentence has an error and the error is in here: “me’s”.

That’s all I wanted to say, somebody else has already found a solution for the question we started with.

47

Z_Al, are you being intentionally obtuse? The bracketing is to help illustrate the function of the possessive 's in the phrase we are discussing.

I am not claiming that me’s is a word. The apostrophe-s is attached to the noun phrase “my sister and me,” so nowhere in the phrase “my sister and me’s cat” does a word me’s in fact appear. Your analysis is wrong, so the status of any words that result from your analysis is a non-issue. Since your premise is wrong, evaluating your conclusions is pointless.

-fh

48

Correct me where I erred, please.

Also, do you have a quote from a reliable source (piece of literature maybe) that utilizes the apostrophe-s possessive in such a form as “so-and-so and me’s such-and-such”? I ask this because I’ve never come across “me’s” in literature before.

Excuse me if I sounded obtuse, didn’t intend to.

49

It’s unlikely that you would. It’s something you hear spoken much more than you see it written. The original poster asked how it might be said correctly. You can google for “and me’s” (or “and I’s” since using I instead of me with a conjunction is a widespread error) and find a decent number of examples.

Really it’s just a matter of deduction based on the known operation of English syntax. We attach the possessive suffix apostrophe-s to the end of noun phrases constantly where the final word of the phrase is something that could not take the suffix if it were by itself:

The man who loves to spend’s wallet was empty.

Now, obviously the possessive in this sentence is showing ownership of wallet, but spend can’t own something, it’s a verb. It’s the man we’re talking about. He’s the head of noun phrase the possessive is modifying. Since the rule of the possessive suffix apostrophe-s is that it goes at the end of the noun phrase it is modifying, it doesn’t sound right when we try and stick it anywhere else:

WRONG: The man’s who loves to spend wallet was empty.

OK, you say… why not bring wallet next to man’s? Still doesn’t work:

WRONG: The man’s wallet who loves to spend was empty.

Some people might be OK with this, but to me it sounds like the wallet loves to spend, which barring magical intervention is not possible. What’s more, if you recorded hours of people in conversation, it’s a pretty safe bet that you would never hear anybody construct a sentence in that way.

I understand that “my sister and me’s cats” looks strange because in English we have an irregular pronoun my that overrides the default “add the suffix [-s]” possessive-forming rule for the pronoun me, but that doesn’t change the fact that what on the surface looks like an error is, after a slightly deeper analysis, correct.

I’m trying to think of a good cite, but it’s difficult to think of anything that refers to this specifically which would make sense to a non-linguist. Syntax is complicated. I’ll flip through my Steven Pinker and John McWhorter books and see if they discuss the topic.

-fh

50

Thanks, hazel-rah… From the way you explained it, I’m beginning to be convinced. If you do (at any time) find a good excerpt as an example, send me a message.

51

Are you serious? “My mother and me bought some ice cream” is grammatically correct? That goes against what I’ve been taught since I was nine years old. I was taught old-school. If they knew anything, they knew English grammar. I learned that “my mother and I” is what it should be because it is the subject and therefore the pronouns must be in the nominative case. I have never heard otherwise. Linguist or not, I’m a little skeptical.

52

It’s not surprising, The Weak Force. The use of pronouns in conjunctions is probably the most common prescriptive error in English.

Despite what many English teachers will tell you, English pronouns don’t have a nominative case. They have subject and oblique cases. The subject case is only used when the pronoun is the subject and stands by itself. In all other cases you use the oblique pronoun.

First person subject pronouns: I, we
First person oblique pronouns: me, us

Third person subject pronouns: he, she, they, it
Third person oblique pronouns: him, her, them, it

-fh

53

In addition to the incorrect creation of the neologysm “me’s”, the other problem with hazel-ra’s and hibernicus’s contentions is that “my sister and me” is not a correct formation in this context. It should be “my sister and I”. Thus creating “my sister’s and I’s cats”, which should actually be “my sister’s and my cats”.

I’m looking at Fowler here to see if Modern English Usage has an answer (this may be UK-centric, so maybe someone can root out the Chicago Manual of Style too). Fowler says avoid the clumsy construction (page 467, 1996 edition):

However, he definitely does not allow the above contention that long phrases may simply be “bracketed” and an apostrophe added at the end when written (as opposed to verbal colloquial construction and writing in the venacular). To wit:

QED IMO.

54

Neologism. :smack:

Bloody Gaudere.

55

jjimm, you’re wrong about the I/me thing. I don’t know what else to tell you. As I said, it’s probably the most common prescriptive error in the English language. Nevertheless, the fact remains: in English, pronouns used with conjunctions always take the oblique case. Always. No exceptions. Yes, a lot of people get this wrong. People at the OED get this wrong. Regardless of where they work, they are still wrong. Their “rule” never had any basis in the history of the language. It was born of linguistic ignorance and an overfondness for Latin and should be forcefully shunned.

Of course, if they keep getting it wrong much longer, it will cease to be wrong. Just the way language change goes. At this point in time however, all they have thus far done is to contribute to the linguistic insecurity of English speakers.

And once again I will say that the brackets were provided to illustrate the underlying syntactic structure of the phrase. And it doesn’t matter if me’s is a word or not… the phrase I offered in response to the OP is good English, no matter how narrow your view of morphology is.

-fh

56

Cite, please?

57

Wrong.

This isn’t math. You can’t just place parentheses around a phrase and add something to the end that applies to the entire phrase. Doesn’t work that way.

Do you have any cites, other than saying you’re a linguist? Considering how much false information you’ve been posting, you really need to back up at least some of your wild claims.

Sorry, that’s nonsense. What you’re attempting to say is that we shouldn’t read it as a sentence but rather as individual words in a sentence. But that’s not how English works. What kind of a linguist are you? You accept that “my cats” is right but for the purpose of this sentence we have to use “me’s cats”?

“Me” is not part of a noun phrase. “My” is. “My cats” is a noun phrase. “Me’s cats” is not.

When there is more than one subject each possessing one object, we parse it thus:

My cats
My sister’s cats

My sister’s and my cats

This is absolutely correct, although this is even better:

Our cats

If I own two cats and my sister owns two more:

My cats and my sister’s cats

And “me’s cats” doesn’t sound awkward? Is English your native language? It’s considered substandard English.

58

Sure, the easiest one to find in a bookstore or library would be in Chapter 12 of Steven Pinker’s “The Language Instinct” where he is discussing grammar mavens.

Be warned that many, many online cites on this subject are wrong.

59

Well a cite would be helpful - I’ve given you one to indicate your assertion is incorrect. I’m quite prepared to accept your assertion if you can show me something that maintains
the opposite of Fowler. However, just repeating that I’m wrong isn’t going to convince me.

60

Are you saying that these are valid?
None of these is correct.
None denote posession. To denote the posession of a noun you use one of these, depending on who or what is the posessor

my cat
your cat
his cat
her cat
our cat
its cat*

None of them have apostrophes to denote posession, because they, of themselves, denote posession.

*Hmm, quite how it can own a cat is unclear.
Say we are talking about a furnace, its maximum temperature could be 1200C. No apostrophe for posession of a noun.
Could do with a degree sign, though - but I’ll live