### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/3 "2015-05-30T14:03:36Z")
> [@scr4](#):
>
> patience = noun
> patient = adjective
>
> I don’t think “this side of \” is grammatical.
Sure it is. “Just this side if happy.” “Just this side of angry.”
It’s a badly constructed sentence, but ending it with an adjective doesn’t exacerbate things.
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### Author:  [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zuzu_s_Petals)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/4 "2015-05-30T14:10:52Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#):
>
> Sure it is. “Just this side if happy.” “Just this side of angry.”
>
> It’s a badly constructed sentence, but ending it with an adjective doesn’t exacerbate things.
Is it? _sobs a little_ I really like it, and think it works in context, but maybe it’s a darling that has to go. I want to keep a slightly colloquial tone.
‘He gave me a look that was barely patient.’
‘The look he gave me was just about patient.’
_ponders_
Thanks for the thoughts so far, everyone.
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### Author:  [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/5 "2015-05-30T14:54:03Z")
I don’t think the construction makes any sense at all.
In all the other quoted examples; glory, hatred, happy or angry going further gets you to the point of glory, hatred, happiness or anger. So what does it mean to be this side of being patient? Unless you mean the character is being impatient but striving to achieve patience. Or do you mean, "He gave me a look that was just this side of losing his patience.’
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### Author:  [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zuzu_s_Petals)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/6 "2015-05-30T15:01:20Z")
Yes, exactly - he’s striving to remain patient. So ‘just this side of patience’ means he’s barely managing to be patient. I suppose I mean ‘just the right side of patience’. Though that sounds clunky(er).
I’m think I’m going to have to reword it.
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/7 "2015-05-30T15:27:02Z")
> [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](#):
>
> Yes, exactly - he’s striving to remain patient. So ‘just this side of patience’ means he’s barely managing to be patient. I suppose I mean ‘just the right side of patience’. Though that sounds clunky(er).
>
> I’m think I’m going to have to reword it.
FWIW, I understood the construction right away, but maybe rephrasing it is best, if others are having difficulty parsing.
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### Author:  [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zuzu_s_Petals)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/8 "2015-05-30T15:36:23Z")
> [@pulykamell](#):
>
> FWIW, I understood the construction right away, but maybe rephrasing it is best, if others are having difficulty parsing.
Thanks. It’s actually not a matter of it not being understood - my copyeditor just thinks I should use ‘patient’ instead of ‘patience’. I prefer ‘patience’, but now I’m wondering if I should just rephrase it altogether.
I do think it’s one of those things that probably work better in context. _she says, clinging to straws_ 😃
Thanks for your input, everyone.
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### Author:  [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/9 "2015-05-30T16:04:36Z")
> [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](#):
>
> Thanks. It’s actually not a matter of it not being understood - my copyeditor just thinks I should use ‘patient’ instead of ‘patience’. I prefer ‘patience’, but now I’m wondering if I should just rephrase it altogether.
>
> I do think it’s one of those things that probably work better in context. _she says, clinging to straws_ 😃
>
> Thanks for your input, everyone.
I think it sounds lovely. If you were to use another word like happy or angry, it would have to be “this side of happy”, not “this side of happiness”, wouldn’t it? So I would go with “patient”.
Source: bloody foreigner who probably has no clue about proper English grammar.
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### Author:  [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/10 "2015-05-30T16:07:19Z")
> [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](#):
>
> Is it? _sobs a little_ I really like it, and think it works in context, but maybe it’s a darling that has to go. I want to keep a slightly colloquial tone.
>
> ‘He gave me a look that was barely patient.’
>
> ‘The look he gave me was just about patient.’
>
> _ponders_
>
> Thanks for the thoughts so far, everyone.
‘He gave me a look that verged on impatience.’
‘The look he gave me was barely patient.’
'He looked at me; his expression showing a barely concealed impatience."
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/11 "2015-05-30T16:14:48Z")
I would go with patient.
> [@scr4](#):
>
> patience = noun
> patient = adjective
>
> I don’t think “this side of \” is grammatical.
The word refers back to “look,” not “this side of,” so the adjective would be most appropriate.
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### Author:  [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zuzu_s_Petals)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/12 "2015-05-30T16:28:37Z")
> [@Colibri](#):
>
> I would go with patient.
>
> The word refers back to “look,” not “this side of,” so the adjective would be most appropriate.
Thanks; that was my copyeditor’s point too, so great minds. 😃
Not challenging - but having been reading grammar sites online I’m genuinely curious, if anyone knows: Wouldn’t ‘that was just this side of patience’ be an adjective clause in this sentence, modifying ‘look’? In which case, would you need to have ‘patient’? It’s not a ‘patient’ look, it’s a ‘just this side of patience’ look.
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### Author:  [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zuzu_s_Petals)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/13 "2015-05-30T16:39:03Z")
Sorry, didn’t see all the other replies! Thanks, everyone; I appreciate your input. (And thanks, **Uniqueorn**!:D)
I’ll probably end up keeping it, but changing to ‘patient’. My style in general is extremely simple and sparse, so occasionally I cling like a limpet to the odd thing that I love.
I’m genuinely curious about the adjective clause question above, though, if anyone knows the answer.
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/14 "2015-05-30T17:22:12Z")
I think the problem is that, if you use patience, you are comparing two dissimilar nouns (look and patience), rather than describing the look with an adjective. A look is something that can be directly observed, while patience is an abstract quality. You can observe a patient look; you cannot observe patience directly.
Let’s take out the “just this side of” and compare the use of nouns and adjectives:
A look that was happy.
A look that was happiness.
A look that was sad.
A look that was sadness.
A look that was angry.
A look that was angriness.
Using the noun only works if the look is happiness or sadness personified. In effect, you are creating a metaphor. Unless that is your intent, you should go with the adjective.
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### Author:  [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/15 "2015-05-30T18:01:05Z")
If you rearrange the original sentence:
“He gave me a patient look.”
“He gave me a patience look.”
Neither is great, but the second one borders on unintelligible.
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### Author:  [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zuzu_s_Petals)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/16 "2015-05-30T18:06:10Z")
Thanks for explaining in such detail, **Colibri**. I see exactly what you mean, but I feel like I must be explaining myself very badly. (And yes, I’ve been around here long enough to know that probably means the problem is me!)
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### Author:  [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zuzu_s_Petals)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/17 "2015-05-30T18:14:19Z")
Argh, missed the edit window. Basically, yes, I know, you wouldn’t say ‘his look was patience’ unless it was a metaphor. But in the example I gave, could ‘that was just this side of patience’, in its entirety, modify ‘look’ as an adjective clause? If not, what am I missing?
Like here:
> **[Examples of Adjective Clauses in Sentences](https://examples.yourdictionary.com/example-adjective-clauses.html)**
>
> Adjective clauses are usually used to clarify a writer’s intent. Discover what that looks like and how to use them with these adjective clause examples.
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/18 "2015-05-30T18:18:14Z")
> [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](#):
>
> Thanks for explaining in such detail, **Colibri**. I see exactly what you mean, but I feel like I must be explaining myself very badly. (And yes, I’ve been around here long enough to know that probably means the problem is me!)
I think using “patience” is not wrong, exactly, but produces a meaning different than what I presume you intend. In effect, you are saying his look was patience itself. This could be OK if you actually intend that metaphorical meaning. However, by adding “just this side of” you weaken that comparison and pull your punches. So even if you intend the metaphorical comparison that wouldn’t be the best way to say it.
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### Author:  [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zuzu_s_Petals)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/19 "2015-05-30T18:27:42Z")
> [@Colibri](#):
>
> I think using “patience” is not wrong, exactly, but produces a meaning different than what I presume you intend. In effect, you are saying his look was patience itself. This could be OK if you actually intend that metaphorical meaning. However, by adding “just this side of” you weaken that comparison and pull your punches. So even if you intend the metaphorical comparison that wouldn’t be the best way to say it.
No, what I’m trying to get across (very badly, obviously!) is that the guy is very very close to NOT being patient. His look is ‘just on this side of patience’ because I mean the _state of mind_ of ‘patience’. Which he’s only barely achieving.
Don’t worry, I’m not going to use it; you’ve all convinced me! 😃 But I _am_ kind of wondering if I’m mad and the only person in the world that this makes sense to.
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### Author:  [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/20 "2015-05-30T19:56:25Z")
> [@Chefguy](#):
>
> If you rearrange the original sentence:
>
> “He gave me a patient look.”
> “He gave me a patience look.”
>
> Neither is great, but the second one borders on unintelligible.
Bingo.
“… just this side of patient.”
is grammatically correct but probably not what quite you mean to say. Which side is “this side”? If it’s the patient side, his look was just a bit more patient than patient. If it’s the impatient side, his look wasn’t quite patient – but why would that be “this” side?
His look was just on the patient side of annoyed is what you mean to say, but that reads even worse.
He gave me a look I’d seen before, and I knew his patience was running out.
(This is why I’m not a writer. Carry on.)
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