# Grammar question - patient or patience?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [May 30, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196 "2015-05-30T13:36:22Z")
**Posts on this page:** 7
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/21 "2015-05-31T00:27:42Z")
Grammatically, I think ‘of’ can take either a noun or an adjective. The problem is that ‘this side of patience’ doesn’t make sense in a literal way. Readers have to construct ‘patience’ as a metaphorical place with sides, and put ‘a look’ (which is already being used metaphorically with ‘gave’) somewhere in relation to it. Try drawing a diagram of the look and the patience together and I think you will see the problem.
If you use ‘patient’ then readers will easily tie it back to the ‘look’, as in ‘a patient (or not-so-patient) look’.
I think I would say ‘barely patient’ or something like that.
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2015, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/22 "2015-05-31T07:20:09Z")
Your editor is correct, for the reasons stated by the people actually answering your question. One means of determining what is grammatical is to remove the extra words that cause confusion. “Look that was patient” works, “look that was patience” does not. Your examples using other nouns would also not work.
Furthermore, the idiom is rather common and is perfectly understandable. There’s no need to know which side of the line you mean, since there is no actual hard line. What one person would describe as “barely patient” another could describe as “slightly impatient.” The difference is emphasis.
I think it is unlikely that there would be any confusion in context.
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2015, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/23 "2015-05-31T07:45:00Z")
> [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](#):
>
> Thanks. It’s actually not a matter of it not being understood - my copyeditor just thinks I should use ‘patient’ instead of ‘patience’. I prefer ‘patience’, but now I’m wondering if I should just rephrase it altogether.
>
> I do think it’s one of those things that probably work better in context. _she says, clinging to straws_ 😃
>
> Thanks for your input, everyone.
My preference is “patient,” too, for the reasons stated above. (Basically, the reference back to “look.”)
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [May 31, 2015, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/24 "2015-05-31T09:48:11Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#):
>
> I don’t think the construction makes any sense at all.
>
> In all the other quoted examples; glory, hatred, happy or angry going further gets you to the point of glory, hatred, happiness or anger. So what does it mean to be this side of being patient? Unless you mean the character is being impatient but striving to achieve patience. Or do you mean, "He gave me a look that was just this side of losing his patience.’
Concur. ‘Just this side of **im** patience’ / **im** patient might make sense, but it doesnt flow so well.
‘Just this side of patient’ means the person was about to be tipped into the state of being patient, but I think the OP is looking for the opposite meaning. Maybe ‘just the other side of…’
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### Author:  [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/25 "2015-06-01T01:01:18Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> Your editor is correct, for the reasons stated by the people actually answering your question. One means of determining what is grammatical is to remove the extra words that cause confusion. “Look that was patient” works, “look that was patience” does not. Your examples using other nouns would also not work.
You are confusing grammar and semantics here. Or maybe grammar and style. But there is nothing grammatically incorrect about ‘a \ that was \’.
_a look that was the last straw_
or
_a quality that was patience_
I’m guessing that’s why Zuzu still kinda feels like her sentence might be right. It kind of is, in a way. It’s just a little hard to make sense out of, though you can get the gist.
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### Author:  [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2015, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/26 "2015-06-02T08:15:41Z")
You can work this out by simplifying the sentence. Which sounds right?
1. He gave me a look that was patience.
2. He gave me a look that was patient.
To me, number 1 sounds completely wrong. Number 2 sounds a bit awkward but correct.
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### Author:  [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-patient-or-patience/721196/27 "2015-06-02T15:09:26Z")
> [@Zuzu\_s\_Petals](#):
>
> No, what I’m trying to get across (very badly, obviously!) is that the guy is very very close to NOT being patient. His look is ‘just on this side of patience’ because I mean the _state of mind_ of ‘patience’. Which he’s only barely achieving.
>
> Don’t worry, I’m not going to use it; you’ve all convinced me! 😃 But I _am_ kind of wondering if I’m mad and the only person in the world that this makes sense to.
I see your sense, but will suggest that it can be expressed more clearly. To me “just this side of” is hard to parse here. My first thought was what side of patience is _this_ side? But usually “just this side of X” means “not actually X, but close to it,” whereas your stated meaning is “technically X, but just barely.”
The way what you’ve explained above comes to my mind is “'He gave me a look that was just barely within the realm of patience.”
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