# Grammar question, punctuation. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 24, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825 "2009-01-24T21:13:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/21 "2009-01-25T14:26:34Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > Is your misrepresentation of descriptivism deliberate? I dunno what that means, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/22 "2009-01-25T14:52:21Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Whose. He Whose Name We Dre Not Speak, that’s whose. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/23 "2009-01-25T14:57:18Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If they didn’t at least whack your knuckles with a ruler they weren’t proper nuns! IMO. Back when I was in grammar (I told you so) school, in the early fifties, pretty much _all_ schools “whacked knuckles”. No, it didn’t do any good. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/24 "2009-01-25T16:48:13Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Back when I was in grammar (I told you so) school, in the early fifties, pretty much _all_ schools “whacked knuckles”. No, it didn’t do any good. Not public schools, kiddo. Descriptivism is usually defined (at least by me) as the style, meaning, usage, and manner of the language as used by “good” writers (those who write professionally for books, magazines, newspapers, academia etc.). If good writers use enormity as a synonym for enormousness, it is a synonym, no matter what the old-fashioned usage guides say. If they don’t use irregardless and ain’t and kewl and other words (except for effect) then those words aren’t acceptable, even if millions of others use them. Descriptivism is a practical response to a language that changes daily. Its drawback is that no two good writers ever agree on any set of acceptable usages (see the usage panel in the American Heritage Dictionary) so when non-professional writers want to attempt to write more formally or “acceptably” it is difficult for them to find the boundaries. Usage guides are an attempt to solve this problem. They are all hopelessly out of date at the moment they are printed but they have the advantage that almost nothing in them will be actually unacceptable. Not being unacceptable is not the same as being acceptable. (All you people who do threads on “double negatives” take note.) Prescriptivists hold that there are standards to the language whose lines should never be crossed in formal writing, and also have a much wider definition of formal writing. This creates impossible problems, IMO, since the rate of language change increases yearly and since no two usage guides or rhetorical manuals agree on all items. If the supposed best experts on the language cannot agree on what is correct, how can they possibly decree what is acceptable? And who do they point to as the authority for this? Nonetheless, most students get taught prescriptively. I’d teach that way, too. It’s a million times easier. Most, if not all, good writers get past this and learn to use their own judgment for what sounds and feels the best in any particular situation. That’s pretty much what makes them good writers. Others are left in a muddle and again it’s easier to state rules and lay down lines when in a muddle. My position is simple. There is and can never be any such thing as “correct” English. There is only “good” English. Fortunately, we can all aspire to good English. And we can all agree that “so lik just do whatever, dood1” just aint’ good English, irregardless. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/25 "2009-01-25T16:57:17Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Lynn Truss, in her wonderful book **Eats, Shoots and Leaves** , compares punctuation marks to musical beats. Comma gets one beat, semicolon two, colon three and full stop (period) gets four. And then showcases how silly a way of thinking about punctuation that is with To err is human; to forgive divine. To err is human tap tap to forgive divine, to err is human tap tap tap to forgive divine. It has less to do with the pausing and more with how the two clauses relate to each other. Semicolons join two similar ideas while colons signify a more abrupt intrusion by another clause. At least, that’s what she says in her book. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/26 "2009-01-25T17:13:02Z")
I think an excellent example of the importance of good english, as clearly described above by **Exapno Mapcase** , would be the Second Amendment. I’ve heard and read good arguements on both sides as to exactly _what_ it says. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/27 "2009-01-25T17:22:49Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Not public schools, kiddo. If you’re saying there was no “knuckle whacking” in public schools in the fifties, I’ll call you on that. Many schools had special paddles. Witness [this](http://jetztimg.sueddeutsche.de/upl/images/user/qu/quotetheraven/615338.jpg) beauty. But I don’t really think that’s what you meant. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/28 "2009-01-25T17:26:34Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I think an excellent example of the importance of good english, as clearly described above by **Exapno Mapcase** , would be the Second Amendment. I’ve heard and read good arguements on both sides as to exactly _what_ it says. Next topic: spelling! ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/29 "2009-01-25T17:43:20Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Next topic: spelling! Uh, that’s french for arguments. It’s much prettier than the english version. ---
**Author:** ![Ponderoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponderoid/32/19221_2.png) [@Ponderoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponderoid)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/30 "2009-01-25T18:31:51Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > irregardless. You did that on purpose, didn’t you. 😃 \*\*\* Ponder ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/31 "2009-01-25T18:35:15Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Uh, that’s french for arguments. It’s much prettier than the english version. “French” and “English” should both be capitalized, so I’d stop digging were I you. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/32 "2009-01-25T19:09:11Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > “French” and “English” should both be capitalized, so I’d stop digging were I you. 😛 Not if I’m typing in French. We’re no longer expected to respect those people. Well, I’m off to Al’s Big Burger to get me a cheeseburger and some Freedom Fries. Wait a minute! We can love The French again, can’t we? Whee! I mean oui! mangeorge, who is “Shovel Ready”. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/33 "2009-01-25T19:11:35Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Not if I’m typing in French. We’re no longer expected to respect those people. > Well, I’m off to Al’s Big Burger to get me a cheeseburger and some Freedom Fries. > Wait a minute! We can love The French again, can’t we? Whee! I mean oui! > mangeorge, who is “Shovel Ready”. > 🆒 Cheeseburger? Doesn’t your name mean “eat barley”? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/34 "2009-01-25T19:23:10Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > My position is simple. There is and can never be any such thing as “correct” English. There is only “good” English. Fortunately, we can all aspire to good English. And we can all agree that “so lik just do whatever, dood1” just aint’ good English, irregardless. My favorite **Exapno** paragraph of all time. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/35 "2009-01-25T19:26:35Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > He Whose Name We Dre Not Speak, that’s whose. :eek: Dr Dre? ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/36 "2009-01-25T19:34:46Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Not public schools, kiddo. > > Descriptivism is usually defined (at least by me) as the style, meaning, usage, and manner of the language as used by “good” writers (those who write professionally for books, magazines, newspapers, academia etc.). If good writers use enormity as a synonym for enormousness, it is a synonym, no matter what the old-fashioned usage guides say. If they don’t use irregardless and ain’t and kewl and other words (except for effect) then those words aren’t acceptable, even if millions of others use them. > > Descriptivism is a practical response to a language that changes daily. Its drawback is that no two good writers ever agree on any set of acceptable usages (see the usage panel in the American Heritage Dictionary) so when non-professional writers want to attempt to write more formally or “acceptably” it is difficult for them to find the boundaries. Usage guides are an attempt to solve this problem. They are all hopelessly out of date at the moment they are printed but they have the advantage that almost nothing in them will be actually unacceptable. Not being unacceptable is not the same as being acceptable. (All you people who do threads on “double negatives” take note.) > > Prescriptivists hold that there are standards to the language whose lines should never be crossed in formal writing, and also have a much wider definition of formal writing. This creates impossible problems, IMO, since the rate of language change increases yearly and since no two usage guides or rhetorical manuals agree on all items. If the supposed best experts on the language cannot agree on what is correct, how can they possibly decree what is acceptable? And who do they point to as the authority for this? > > Nonetheless, most students get taught prescriptively. I’d teach that way, too. It’s a million times easier. Most, if not all, good writers get past this and learn to use their own judgment for what sounds and feels the best in any particular situation. That’s pretty much what makes them good writers. Others are left in a muddle and again it’s easier to state rules and lay down lines when in a muddle. > > My position is simple. There is and can never be any such thing as “correct” English. There is only “good” English. Fortunately, we can all aspire to good English. And we can all agree that “so lik just do whatever, dood1” just aint’ good English, irregardless. So you’re saying English is just a pop culture phenomenon, dictated by whoever the pop-writer-du-jour happens to be? That works for me. Music, art, movies, etc. are often decided the same way… by popular opinion. It’s a language of the people, by the people, for the people, damn it, no matter what the British say! If we wanted an actual authority, we’d all start speaking French and referring to the Académie française. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/37 "2009-01-25T21:51:00Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Cheeseburger? Doesn’t your name mean “eat barley”? Yep. I talk the talk, but I don’t walk the walk. I’m weak. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/38 "2009-01-25T21:57:03Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > So you’re saying English is just a pop culture phenomenon, dictated by whoever the pop-writer-du-jour happens to be? That works for me. Music, art, movies, etc. are often decided the same way… by popular opinion. It’s a language of the people, by the people, for the people, damn it, no matter what the British say! > > If we wanted an actual authority, we’d all start speaking French and referring to the Académie française. Yeah, them \* Brits. They keep trying to steal our language. Pret-ty cheeky, I must say. \*I would have said “bloody” here, but I’m still not sure exactly what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/39 "2009-01-25T22:10:31Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Yeah, them \* Brits. They keep trying to steal our language. Pret-ty cheeky, I must say. Well, you know what they say, we’re two people separated by a common language. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825/40 "2009-01-26T01:19:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, you know what they say, we’re two people separated by a common language. 😃 In general, I think it’s pretty cool. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-punctuation/482825.md?page=3)