# Grammar question: Should it be The Beatles, or the Beatles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 3, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357 "2016-06-03T03:43:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/1 "2016-06-03T03:43:01Z")
Or how about The Who, versus the Who. I maintain that “the” is part of the band’s name. It’s not Beatles and Who. These are just two examples of I’m sure many (The Doors, The Cars), so what should the rule be? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveroptic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiveroptic/32/8257_2.png) [@Fiveroptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveroptic)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/2 "2016-06-03T03:53:38Z")
Hmm. But you’d say, “this is a Beatles song,” not “this is a The Beatles song” so I’m going with a lowercase t. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/3 "2016-06-03T03:55:24Z")
I’ve always seen it lowercased unless it’s the first word of the sentence. Even at The Ohio State University. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/4 "2016-06-03T04:14:45Z")
If a band choose to include “the” in their name, to my mind it’s capitalized. I don’t see that as so much of a grammar question as one of personal autonomy to choose any name for yourself or your band that you wish, coupled with the convention to capitalize proper names. Bands can choose names that clearly fall outside of any notion of grammar rules. There is a British band called “The The”! I believe that in all of the examples that you mention, “The…” is included as part of the chosen name of the band. There is another interesting question, I think. What happens when a band has a plural name, but does not choose to include “The…” as part of its band name? The technical expression for this is **anarthrous band names with plural morphology** (!). When you refer to such a band in a sentence, if you append “the” it should presumably not be capitalized. But the question is, _when_ do you append “the”? There appears to be a loose rule that maybe you are more likely to append “the” when the band name could plausibly refer to its members. These seem to follow that rule: **Never take the:** Simlple Minds Guns n Roses Crash Test Dummies 10,000 Maniacs Dire Straits **Always take the:** the Dixie Chicks the Spice Girls the Thompson Twins But many counterexamples: Men At Work the Red Hot Chilli Pepperes Believe it or not, there’s an extensive Language Log discussion of this. [http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4776](http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4776) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/5 "2016-06-03T04:22:27Z")
> [@Fiveroptic](#): > > Hmm. But you’d say, “this is a Beatles song,” not “this is a The Beatles song” so I’m going with a lowercase t. This is an interesting point. The band’s chosen names is “The Beatles”, which to me argues for capitalization. But you’ve pointed out a quirk of this situation - purely logically, perhaps we should say “This is a _The Beatles_ song”. In the case of the British band “The The”, we probably would indeed say “This is a _The The_ song”, because the band’s very name clearly blows normal grammar out of the water! But obviously we don’t do that for The Beatles, we remove the “The” just as we would if it were not part of a proper name. It’s a surprisingly interesting question. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/6 "2016-06-03T04:29:28Z")
ETA to the above: How about _The Who_? I’m not clear myself what I would say here: **This is a _Who_ song.** or **This is a _The Who_ song.** They both sound wrong! ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/7 "2016-06-03T04:45:14Z")
Back in the 60’s, a friend of mine who had lived a while in Italy had an Italian issue Beatles album. He found it interesting that the liner notes\* referred to them as _Il The Beatles_ (“il” being Italian for “the”). \*ETA: which were in Italian. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/8 "2016-06-03T04:53:29Z")
The late Glenn Frey insisted the name of his band should just be “Eagles.” No “the” at the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![donkeyoatey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@donkeyoatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/donkeyoatey)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/9 "2016-06-03T04:58:27Z")
What about The The? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/10 "2016-06-03T05:15:27Z")
Do you have _The Beatles_’ latest album? Do you have the \*Beatles \*album? Do you have a _Beatles_ album? Do you have _The Who_’s latest album? ??? Do you have a [_The_] _Who_ album? ??? Do you have the [_The_] _Who_ album? Do you have _The The_’s latest album. Do you have a _The The_ album? Do you have the _The The_ album? It’s interesting that, for me, the ??? ones are the only ones I’m not sure how I’d say. I’d definitely chop “The” off the formal band name of The Beatles when “the” would normally not be present in a sentence. Whereas with “The The”, because it makes no intuitive grammatical sense at all, I think I’d treat it as though it was any string of gibberish and just preserve it intact. But “The Who” seems to be somewhere in between, which creates uncertainty. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/11 "2016-06-03T08:03:11Z")
Then how about . . . Hootie & the Blowfish? Hootie & The Blowfish? Hootie and the Blowfish? Hootie and The Blowfish? Hootie And the Blowfish? Hootie And The Blowfish? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/12 "2016-06-03T09:07:22Z")
There’s nothing here intrinsically specific to bands. The same question is relevant to lots of names: I read it in the New York Times. or I read it in The New York Times. He works at the White House. or He works at The White House. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/13 "2016-06-03T09:38:45Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Do you have _The Beatles_’ latest album? > Do you have the \*Beatles \*album? > Do you have a _Beatles_ album? > > Do you have _The Who_’s latest album? > ??? Do you have a [_The_] _Who_ album? > ??? Do you have the [_The_] _Who_ album? > > Do you have _The The_’s latest album. > Do you have a _The The_ album? > Do you have the _The The_ album? > > It’s interesting that, for me, the ??? ones are the only ones I’m not sure how I’d say. I’d definitely chop “The” off the formal band name of The Beatles when “the” would normally not be present in a sentence. Whereas with “The The”, because it makes no intuitive grammatical sense at all, I think I’d treat it as though it was any string of gibberish and just preserve it intact. But “The Who” seems to be somewhere in between, which creates uncertainty. What’s wrong with _Do you have the latest album by (or from) The Beatles or The Who or The The?_ Of course you probably wouldn’t say that in a shop (unless you are a pedant) but capital letters don’t matter in verbal communications. Calling a band The The, gives us opportunities for sentences like: _In The The the drummer is great._ ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/14 "2016-06-03T10:58:00Z")
Lower case T. The name is not ‘The Beatles’ it’s the ‘Beatles’. Just like John and Cynthia and Julian were the Lennons, or Paul and Linda were the McCartneys. About 1/3 of the albums that actually include the name on the jacket render it merely as ‘Beatles’. Only 2 of the others render the title in mixed case, and one of those (the White Album) renders it as ‘The BEATLES’, which sets the actual name off. (The other is Yellow Submarine, which renders it as The Beatles.) ---
**Author:** ![Totenfeier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@Totenfeier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Totenfeier)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/15 "2016-06-03T11:23:39Z")
Eurythmics often said that that was their name, _not_ The Eurythmics. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/16 "2016-06-03T11:52:07Z")
On the original Star Trek run (the one starring William Shatner), the characters referred to their starship as “the Enterprise”. The most recent version (starring Scott Bakula) was set in a different century, and had a different starship, but with the same name. But it was entirely natural for the characters to speak of the ship simply as “Enterprise”. We refer to the famous ocean liner as “the Titanic”, but the famous space shuttle as just “Challenger”. I don’t know how relevant any of this is, but I wanted to throw it into the ring anyway. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/17 "2016-06-03T12:07:54Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > ETA to the above: > > How about _The Who_? > > I’m not clear myself what I would say here: > > **This is a _Who_ song.** > or > **This is a _The Who_ song.** > > They both sound wrong! The first sounds completely fine to my ear, and how I would say it (and have said it.) Smashing Pumpkins is another band that’s sometimes without the definite article (first couple albums) and then switched to using the definite article in their name. ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/18 "2016-06-03T12:09:50Z")
I know that when I was ripping CDs, Microsoft would put them under “The Beatles” :mad: Of course, it would file every artist with the the first letter. Example: "T"om Waites. (Of course you can simply rename the files.) Decades ago, working in a record store, customers would often search for various bands in the “T” section. The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Who. We would politely point out how the alphabet works. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/19 "2016-06-03T12:27:20Z")
> [@campp](#): > > Decades ago, working in a record store, customers would often search for various bands in the “T” section. The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Who. We would politely point out how the alphabet works. 😉 That’s not so much how the alphabet works, as how _alphabetizing_ works–a subtly different thing. It’s not true just with music, either. I’m a librarian, and it always surprises me, when we’re training new student assistants, how many of them want to alphabetize titles which begin with “The” under T, or will include “The” when searching something in the online catalog. Ignoring initial articles when alphabetizing is not something that’s intuitively obvious to most people, apparently. It’s something you have to be taught. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Me](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mr.Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Me)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/20 "2016-06-03T12:45:59Z")
At least there’s no doubt about [Talking Heads](http://www.panikrecords.com/data/picture/TalkingHeads-Nameofthisband-FR-OBI.jpg). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357.md?page=2)