# Grammar question: Should it be The Beatles, or the Beatles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 3, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357 "2016-06-03T03:43:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/21 "2016-06-03T13:48:10Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > The late Glenn Frey insisted the name of his band should just be “Eagles.” No “the” at the beginning. I was going to post something like this. I don’t recall if if was only Frey, or multiple members of the Eagles. It is very awkward to say “this is a new song by Eagles” without “the” before “Eagles”. But I recall one of the band members saying they are not the football team, and not “the” Eagles. Sounded stupid and pretentious… then and now. ---
**Author:** ![Skinnybones\_Lampshade](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skinnybones_lampshade/32/2872_2.png) [@Skinnybones\_Lampshade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skinnybones_Lampshade)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/22 "2016-06-03T14:04:02Z")
“Wings” seems to be exceptional in that nobody seems prone to calling the group “The Wings.” Maybe that’s because we were introduced to them as “Paul McCartney and Wings,” which made it perfectly clear from the outset that there was no “the” involved. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/23 "2016-06-03T14:18:14Z")
I once had an English teacher who claimed a magazine article titled “The Who’s Roger Daltrey” was incorrect; he said it should be “The Whose Roger Daltrey”. In his defense, my teacher didn’t know who Daltrey was and was unaware The Who (or the Who) was the name of a band. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/24 "2016-06-03T14:32:11Z")
As someone who remembers working in a library with card catalogs, I’m glad to throw the whole question in a dustbin (assuming those still exist). Alphabetization in the real world is a picky, nitpicky, picayune, and peculiar mess. (The United States of America as a subject, title, and author was worthy of a course in library school all to itself.) I go with convention on this. If you want to be formal, it’s The Beatles. In any ordinary sentence, though, it’s a Beatles song or a Who song. When alphabetizing, drop the “The.” A much simpler world. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/25 "2016-06-03T15:06:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I once had an English teacher who claimed a magazine article titled “The Who’s Roger Daltrey” was incorrect; he said it should be “The Whose Roger Daltrey”. In his defense, my teacher didn’t know who Daltrey was and was unaware The Who (or the Who) was the name of a band. Whose on first? ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/26 "2016-06-03T15:31:24Z")
This is not a grammar question. One test for that is whether it applies to spoken English too. It doesn’t, so it’s not. Me, lower-case “the”, definitely. It annoys me when people write “The”. I mean, John Lennon was a Beatle, not A Beatle. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/27 "2016-06-03T15:41:24Z")
There seems to be no universally accepted standard on this, to my admitted surprise. Sometimes the direct article is capitalized as part of the proper name, sometimes not. The band sometimes styled itself The Beatles, and sometimes just as “Beatles.” Going by album art, posters, and the like, it’s frankly hard to say they were themselves consistent in whether or not the direct article was part of the name. Since it’s not a necessary distinction, I’d say it should not necessarily be capitalized, but should always be used when referring to the band as a proper noun (“George Harrison was a member of the Beatles”) but can be omitted when using the name as an adjective ("Beatles music changed significantly as the band matured.) This is probably generally true of most bands that style themselves with direct articles - the Rolling Stones, the Tragically Hip, the Killers, the Beastie Boys, the Doors. All kind of look better if you capitalize the direct article but you can live with it. (But not bands that never style themselves with direct articles; Genesis, Run-DMC, Supertramp, OutKast.) In some cases however it is necessary to ensure clarity, so “The Who” is pretty much how that has to be styled. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/28 "2016-06-03T15:59:21Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m not clear myself what I would say here: > > **This is a _Who_ song.** > or > **This is a _The Who_ song.** > > They both sound wrong! “This is a song by The Who.” > [@Skinnybones\_Lampshade](#): > > “Wings” seems to be exceptional in that nobody seems prone to calling the group “The Wings.” Maybe that’s because we were introduced to them as “Paul McCartney and Wings,” which made it perfectly clear from the outset that there was no “the” involved. I think you’re right. I also think that, though it may not be completely consistent, a band name of the form “The [Plural Noun]” makes it much more likely that you’ll think of that noun as referring to the individuals who make up the band. Thus, for example, it doesn’t sound strange to say “Paul McCartney was a Beatle,” but nobody ever says “Denny Laine was a Wing.” ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/29 "2016-06-03T16:11:46Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I also think that, though it may not be completely consistent, a band name of the form “The [Plural Noun]” makes it much more likely that you’ll think of that noun as referring to the individuals who make up the band. Thus, for example, it doesn’t sound strange to say “Paul McCartney was a Beatle,” but nobody ever says “Denny Laine was a Wing.” I agree. I don’t parse names like “Wings” in at all the same way as “the Beatles”. Which is why it always sounded strange to me when Glenn Frey insisted on “Eagles”. It makes the band name feel totally different. “The Eagles” means “here are some guys, each one of which is, in some sense, an Eagle.” Names like “Wings” and “Eagles” (without the “the”) are more abstract. They’re more like those band names that are uncountable nouns, such as “Blur” or “Air”, than a description of a number of individual Eagles or Wings. Hence, if feels wrong to say “Denny Laine was a Wing.” This form of name, plural noun with no preceding “the”, is is actually quite unusual, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/30 "2016-06-03T16:18:29Z")
> [@donkeyoatey](#): > > What about The The? See posts 4 and 5. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/31 "2016-06-03T16:23:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The band sometimes styled itself The Beatles, and sometimes just as “Beatles.” Going by album art, posters, and the like, it’s frankly hard to say they were themselves consistent in whether or not the direct article was part of the name. What can you expect from a bunch of hippies? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/32 "2016-06-03T16:25:50Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Then how about . . . > > Hootie & the Blowfish? > Hootie & The Blowfish? > Hootie and the Blowfish? > Hootie and The Blowfish? > Hootie And the Blowfish? > Hootie And The Blowfish? Booty and the Ho-fish ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/33 "2016-06-03T16:29:55Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > The late Glenn Frey insisted the name of his band should just be “Eagles.” No “the” at the beginning. And, going the other way, I’ve heard live concert and BBC studio recordings where that Clapton power trio was called “The Cream.” Hendrix himself said this (during a concert just after Clapton’s trio disbanded). It sounds so odd to me! Did most people call them “The Cream” at the time? If so, when did people start to switch to “Cream”? Certainly in my world (US), it was just “Cream” by around 1980 at the latest. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/34 "2016-06-03T16:34:29Z")
Wikipedia to the rescue: Initially, the group were referred to and billed as “The Cream”, but starting officially with its first record releases, the trio came to be known as “Cream” Maybe Jimi missed the memo. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/35 "2016-06-03T16:44:14Z")
Actually, Jimi was a friend and fan of the group from about Day 1, months before their first LP. So, he got used to calling the The Cream more than just about anyone else would have had a chance to. And it’s hard to change a habit like that. Makes sense now. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/36 "2016-06-03T17:07:43Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > And, going the other way, I’ve heard live concert and BBC studio recordings where that Clapton power trio was called “The Cream.” Hendrix himself said this (during a concert just after Clapton’s trio disbanded). It sounds so odd to me! Did most people call them “The Cream” at the time? If so, when did people start to switch to “Cream”? Certainly in my world (US), it was just “Cream” by around 1980 at the latest. I think (the) Pink Floyd also did this? It is indeed going the other way. It is taking an abstract or uncountable noun and putting an incongruous “the” in front of it. Seems to have been the thing to do, back then. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/37 "2016-06-03T17:13:49Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > It is taking an abstract or uncountable noun and putting an incongruous “the” in front of it. Seems to have been the thing to do, back then. It sorta makes sense for Cream, as “The Cream” makes me think of “the cream of the crop” or “The cream rises to the top.” ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/38 "2016-06-03T17:21:57Z")
That’s a valid interpretation, but not how I think of the name. I think “Cream” is just meant in an abstract, general sense, and hence cannot logically have a definite article attached to it. Therefore, preceding it with “the” is a sort of affectation. It’s like they’re saying “this is the one and only Cream.” ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/39 "2016-06-03T17:27:21Z")
Wikipedia alphabetizes The Dalles, Oregon, as a name starting with T. So does the Rand’McNally Road Atlas gazetteer, but the Collins Atlas of the World alphabetizes it as “Dalles, The”. There is a newspaper in The Dalles, which is "The Dalles Chronicle. That would also be alphabetized as beginning with T, although The Madras Pioneer would begin with M. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357/40 "2016-06-03T17:27:25Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > I think (the) Pink Floyd also did this? > It is indeed going the other way. It is taking an abstract or uncountable noun and putting an incongruous “the” in front of it. Seems to have been the thing to do, back then. It’s true that these from that era are incongruous _The Pink Floyd_ (which as you say was their name at one time) _The Who_ _The The_ But _The Cream_ can just be read to mean “the best”, as in “the cream of the crop”. I wonder if _Cream_ realized that for their band name, prepending _The_ did **not** grant them the trendy incongruity that they desired, in fact it gave a possible reading that implied something they didn’t intend - seeming to claim “ **we in the band are** the best” instead of just an abstract concept - and that’s why they removed it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-should-it-be-the-beatles-or-the-beatles/756357.md?page=3)