# Grammar Question - Subjunctive Mood?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [August 10, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536 "2008-08-10T22:42:43Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/1 "2008-08-10T22:42:43Z")
Which is correct:
The doctor ordered x-rays to check if her leg was broken. If it were broken, she would stay in a cast for approximately three to five months; if her leg were not broken, she would still need to have physical therapy.
The doctor ordered x-rays to check if her leg was broken. If it was broken, she would stay in a cast for approximately three to five months; if her leg was not broken, she would still need to have physical therapy.
---
### Author:  [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2008, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/2 "2008-08-10T23:07:26Z")
Oh crap, here I go trying to answer a grammar question:
I think the right answer is “…if it was broken.”
Because it is still unknown at the time the speaker uttered the sentence, it could not be considered a condition contrary to fact as in, “If I were king…” when I am certainly not and never will be.
So “was” is appropriate.
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### Author:  [@zeno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeno)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/3 "2008-08-10T23:10:33Z")
Neither of those is right. I would say “If broken, she would…”
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2008, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/4 "2008-08-10T23:12:11Z")
[QUOTE=BarnOwl]
Oh crap, here I go trying to answer a grammar question:
I think the right answer is “…if it was broken.”
Because it is still unknown at the time the speaker uttered the sentence, it could not be considered a condition contrary to fact as in, “If I were king…” when I am certainly not and never will be.
So “was” is appropriate.
[/QUOTE]
I do not think it is contrary to a fact. I think it is a subjunctive supposition.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2008, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/5 "2008-08-10T23:13:20Z")
[QUOTE=zeno]
Neither of those is right. I would say “If broken, she would…”
[/QUOTE]
Wouldn’t that mean she was broken, not her leg?
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### Author:  [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2008, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/6 "2008-08-10T23:13:37Z")
Zeno, you’re mistaken; there is no question of her being broken, just her leg. I agree that “was” is the correct conjugation.
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### Author:  [@ragerdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ragerdude)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/7 "2008-08-10T23:51:09Z")
I think it also depends on the time the statement is spoken. If it is said in real time (after the doctor has ordered the x-rays, but before they results are known to anyone), I would say it this way:
Ten minutes ago, the doctor ordered x-rays to check if her leg is broken. If it is broken, she will stay in a cast for approximately three to five months; if her leg is not broken, she will still need to have physical therapy.
The subjunctive mood would be used in contrary-to-fact situations:
The doctor ordered x-rays to check if her leg was broken. _Had it been broken_, she would have needed to stay in a cast for approximately three to five months; _since her leg was not broken_, she only needed to have physical therapy.
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### Author:  [@zeno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeno)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/8 "2008-08-12T00:41:26Z")
[QUOTE=Nametag]
Zeno, you’re mistaken; there is no question of her being broken, just her leg. I agree that “was” is the correct conjugation.
[/QUOTE]
Damned dangling participles! :smack:
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### Author:  [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/9 "2008-08-12T05:05:05Z")
There’s a question that’s always nagged me about the English subjunctive, but nobody I’ve ever asked has known the answer. Most people say “I wish that she _was_ here”. But that sounds a little wrong, so a lot of people say “I wish that she _were_ here” instead. But when I looked it up in 501 English Verbs, it said that the subjunctive conjugation of the verb ‘be’ is ‘be’. So should it really be expressed “I wish that she _be_ here”? That sounds weird, but that’s the only conclusion I can come up with.
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### Author:  [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/10 "2008-08-12T06:30:35Z")
Arrgh! 501 Verbs is WRONG! – or at least incomplete.
English, like German, has two subjunctive moods; the first subjunctive is expressed using naked infinitives, and is used sort of like an imperative: “I command that he be brought before me”; “it is my wish that she be here on the 10th.”
The second subjunctive is the familiar “past-tense-looking” subjunctive, which is used to express that “contrary to fact” business: “I wish she were here.” Check out my sig for a more coherent explanation – I’m tired.
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### Author:  [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/11 "2008-08-12T07:29:25Z")
This is what keeps me plunking down fifteen bucks every year. Nametag is my hero.
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/12 "2008-08-12T07:34:58Z")
[QUOTE=Nametag]
Arrgh! 501 Verbs is WRONG! – or at least incomplete.
English, like German, has two subjunctive moods; the first subjunctive is expressed using naked infinitives, and is used sort of like an imperative: “I command that he be brought before me”; “it is my wish that she be here on the 10th.”
The second subjunctive is the familiar “past-tense-looking” subjunctive, which is used to express that “contrary to fact” business: “I wish she were here.” Check out my sig for a more coherent explanation – I’m tired.
[/QUOTE]
And the first of these is the _iussive subjunctive_, if I remember correctly from about thirty years ago. (The construction is also used in Latin, and French IIRC.)
It took me a long time to realize that the note in the prayer-book that indicated the place in the service for _The Sermon (if there be one)_ was not a piece of rustic English.
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### Author:  [@zeno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeno)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/13 "2008-08-12T17:56:21Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra]
And the first of these is the _iussive subjunctive_, if I remember correctly from about thirty years ago. (The construction is also used in Latin, and French IIRC.)
It took me a long time to realize that the note in the prayer-book that indicated the place in the service for _The Sermon (if there be one)_ was not a piece of rustic English.
[/QUOTE]
Let us be thankful we don’t have to deal with the [optative](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optative)
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### Author:  [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/14 "2008-08-12T18:08:45Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
Which is correct:
The doctor ordered x-rays to check if her leg was broken. If it were broken, she would stay in a cast for approximately three to five months; if her leg were not broken, she would still need to have physical therapy.
The doctor ordered x-rays to check if her leg was broken. If it was broken, she would stay in a cast for approximately three to five months; if her leg was not broken, she would still need to have physical therapy.
[/QUOTE]
IMO, neither is correct, because a correct conditional would be “The doctor ordered x-rays to check if her leg were broken”. Having corrected that, then the first sample would be correct. It doesn’t sound natural but it’s technically correct.
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/15 "2008-08-12T18:41:23Z")
[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief]
IMO, neither is correct, because a correct conditional would be “The doctor ordered x-rays to check if her leg were broken”.
[/QUOTE]
You sure about that? It’s not a conditional so far as I can tell. There’s no if-then(main clause) relationship there that I see.
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### Author:  [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/16 "2008-08-12T19:06:12Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell]
You sure about that? It’s not a conditional so far as I can tell. There’s no if-then(main clause) relationship there that I see.
[/QUOTE]
There’s an ‘if’. There doesn’t need to be a ‘then’. You wouldn’t conjugate “if her leg were broken, then…” differently than “see if her leg were broken.” In both cases it’s a counterfactual situation.
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/17 "2008-08-12T19:30:49Z")
[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief]
There’s an ‘if’. There doesn’t need to be a ‘then’. You wouldn’t conjugate “if her leg were broken, then…” differently than “see if her leg were broken.” In both cases it’s a counterfactual situation.
[/QUOTE]
"If"s are not automatically conditional. Conditionals, so far as I know, have a condition and a result clause. The sentence above does not fit the pattern of any of the four English conditionals (named zero, first, second, and third conditional.)
It’s a non-conditional “if” which is used in the exact same sense as “whether.”
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/18 "2008-08-12T19:36:13Z")
[Read the usage note here.](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/if)
> [@](#):
>
> In informal writing both if and whether are standard in their use to introduce a clause indicating uncertainty after a verb such as ask, doubt, know, learn, or see: We shall soon learn whether (or if) it is true. In such contexts, however, the use of if can sometimes create ambiguities. Depending on the intended meaning, the sentence Let her know if she is invited might be better paraphrased as Let her know whether she is invited or If she is invited, let her know.
>
> […]
>
> Again according to the traditional rule, the subjunctive is not correctly used following verbs such as ask or wonder in if clauses that express indirect questions, even if the content of the question is presumed to be contrary to fact: We wondered if dinner was (not were) included in the room price. Some of the people we met even asked us if California was (not were) an island.
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### Author:  [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/19 "2008-08-12T21:28:47Z")
Isn’t this just a matter or singular/plural? If the sentence used “legs”, it’d definately be “were”, right? I think the answer is “was”, simply because it’s one leg.
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### Author:  [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/20 "2008-08-12T21:40:47Z")
[QUOTE=zeno]
Let us be thankful we don’t have to deal with the [optative](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optative)
[/QUOTE]
Oh, but we do: it’s mostly archaic, but the optative is yet another use of the subjunctive mood in English, and still remains in constructions like “God defend New Zealand” or “Bless you!”. It’s widely misunderstood - most people interpret it as an imperative {God, I instruct you to defend New Zealand} or as a declarative {God defends New Zealand}, but it’s used to express a wish or desire that the speaker has no direct influence over: “May God defend New Zealand.” An optative like “Bless you!” would probably be rendered these days as “May God bless you”, since the speaker has no direct power to bless, but can only hope that God will oblige: as was pointed out in another thread, “May the Force be with you!” would render quite neatly into the optative as “The Force be with you!”.
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