# Grammar Question - Subjunctive Mood?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [August 10, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536 "2008-08-10T22:42:43Z")
**Posts on this page:** 7
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/21 "2008-08-12T22:11:51Z")
Huh, and here, I would have thought that those would be a particular case of the hortative subjunctive (the “lettuce” form). If I say “Let us go to the movies”, I’m recommending to some other person that that person take the course of action of going to the movies with me, and if I say “May God bless America”, I’m recommending to God that God take the course of action of blessing America.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2008, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/22 "2008-08-12T22:20:37Z")
“Broken” is not a verb. I believe “was” would be the correct construction because we’re not talking about a potential future verb, but a past tense adjective. You might say “if she were to _find out_ the leg was broken…” or you might say “if she were to break the leg…” but don’t get confused and try to match the subjunctive with the past tense adjective. The leg either already was or was not broken. The potential action lies in discovering the condition, not in the condition itself.
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### Author:  [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/23 "2008-08-13T01:44:42Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos]
Huh, and here, I would have thought that those would be a particular case of the hortative subjunctive (the “lettuce” form). If I say “Let us go to the movies”, I’m recommending to some other person that that person take the course of action of going to the movies with me, and if I say “May God bless America”, I’m recommending to God that God take the course of action of blessing America.
[/QUOTE]
Alas, one cannot make recommendations to God\*: if I wanted your goggly eyes to be damned and blasted\*\*, I suppose I could ask Him nicely, but I’d still need to use the imperative form: “Our Father which art in heaven, damn and blast **Chronos** ”, possibly with a please in there. It’s generally acknowledged that we have no direct sway with the Almighty unless it pleases Him, so the most I can do is express the desire that he act as I wish, damn and blast your goggly eyes. Most divine or mystical agencies traditionally seem immune to direct appeal, hence the number of national anthems - and curses - which do use the optative subjunctive.
\*I’m using the conventional assumption that he exists and is an interventionist god. Work with me here.
\*\*I’m sure your eyes are lovely, and I have no personal wish to see them damned or blasted. It’s a phrase I picked up from “Blackadder”.
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### Author:  [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2008, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/24 "2008-08-13T01:45:48Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
“Broken” is not a verb.
[/QUOTE]
“broken” can be a verb; it is the past participle of “break”. Of course, many past participles can be deployed as or have turned into adjectives as well.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2008, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/25 "2008-08-13T01:54:06Z")
Participles are made from verb forms but they do not act as verbs gramatically. They act as adjectives or nouns. In the sentence in question, “broken” is being used as an adjective.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/26 "2008-08-13T18:14:42Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Alas, one cannot make recommendations to God\*:
Sure one can. That doesn’t say anything about whether He will take the recommendation, but it doesn’t seem to me that there’s any evidence that God is any more or less likely to act on a recommendation than He is to act on an imperative command.
> [@](#):
>
> It’s generally acknowledged that we have no direct sway with the Almighty unless it pleases Him, so the most I can do is express the desire that he act as I wish,
And likewise, when I tell a friend “Let’s go to a movie”, all I’m doing there is expressing a desire that my friend go to a movie with me, as well.
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### Author:  [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2008, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-subjunctive-mood/459536/27 "2008-08-13T21:09:50Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos]
Sure one can. That doesn’t say anything about whether He will take the recommendation, but it doesn’t seem to me that there’s any evidence that God is any more or less likely to act on a recommendation than He is to act on an imperative command.
And likewise, when I tell a friend “Let’s go to a movie”, all I’m doing there is expressing a desire that my friend go to a movie with me, as well.
[/QUOTE]
The difference between the hortatory\* subjunctive and the optative is that the former is urging a group _of which he is a member_ to action. It requires a direct “us” relationship between speaker and listener which the speaker has power to influence, for example “Let us pray”: the priest can urge the congregation to prayer because of the “us” relationship.
This relationship of power and influence does not traditionally exist between a supplicant and a supernatural agency, hence the use of the optative, which is used to express a desire which the speaker has no power to influence: one can imagine Zeus urging Yahweh - as fellow deities - “Let’s save the Queen!”, but as a mortal I can only express the wish that “God save the Queen!”.
\*You can lead a hortatory, but you can’t make her a Whig.
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