# Grammar Question. Where is the adverb in the noun+adverb compound noun 'sunrise'? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 20, 2024, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068 "2024-03-20T07:04:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068/21 "2024-03-20T13:52:59Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > In this case, though, isn’t this just elipsis of the prepositional phrase “on Tuesday”? The phrase is adverbial but the words in it are preposition + noun. Sure you can say “on Tuesday”, but I’d argue that that’s an adjectival noun phrase. It’s absolutely acting as an adverb. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Given “sunrise” and “moonrise,” I’d agree that sun is functioning adjectivally, but “rise” looks like a noun to me. I made a valiant argument for the “verb” angle while acknowledging the noun interpretation, but I concede that point. “Rise” is most appropriately regarded as a noun, and “sun” as an attributive (adjectival) noun. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068/22 "2024-03-20T14:05:13Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Sure you can say “on Tuesday”, but I’d argue that that’s an adjectival noun phrase. It’s absolutely acting as an adverb. Do you mean “that’s an adverbial noun phrase”? Otherwise I’m really confused. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068/23 "2024-03-20T14:07:33Z")
I don’t know what prompt you used to get that bullshit, but I do acknowledge the point. I no longer have the original prompts I used but obviously the very first question in the OP wasn’t one of them, or if it was, I got drastically different answers. When I tried a cut-and-paste of that exact first question from the OP, GPT assured me that in “sunrise”, “rise” was indeed an adverb. 🙄 I guess I just get frustrated with these kinds of condemnations because the vast majority of the time – though I haven’t been using it much lately – GPT gives me good information confirmed from other sources, and when it doesn’t, the errors are so blatant that they’re obvious. ISTM that when an AI does something stupid, it gets all over the media and the internet. All the times that it’s amazingly successful are just quietly tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068/24 "2024-03-20T14:09:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > Sure you can say “on Tuesday”, but I’d argue that that’s an adjectival noun phrase. It’s absolutely acting as an adverb. > > Do you mean “that’s an adverbial noun phrase”? Otherwise I’m really confused. Bah! Thank you. It must be my bedtime. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068/25 "2024-03-20T14:09:49Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > the vast majority of the time – though I haven’t been using it much lately – GPT gives me good information confirmed from other sources, and when it doesn’t, the errors are so blatant that they’re obvious. Okay, but this time, the errors were so blatant that they were obvious. If we can’t admit when AI does something stupid, we’re going to have a hard time evaluating it. Freaking out about discussing its occasional foolishness is unhelpful. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068/26 "2024-03-20T14:36:08Z")
If a human writes something that seems obviously wrong, I might spend time figuring out **why** it’s wrong, for any number of useful reasons. If a robot writes something obviously wrong, I’m going to say “this robot is an idiot” and move on with my life. So yes, being able to tell the difference between the two is deeply important, as is understanding where LLMs are useful for professional practice and where the lines are between useful, suspect, and absolute garbage. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068/27 "2024-03-20T15:14:18Z")
I’m real late to the party. I suppose that if English had settled on the term “sunrising” as a near-synonym for dawn, rather than “sunrise”, the verby nature of the “rising” part would be obvious. e.g. > At the sunrising I was outside to enjoy the air and the sound of awakening birds. “Sunrising” isn’t a currently idiomatic term, but there are some few other noun/verb combos in ordinary English that are constructed that way. ISTM they’re becoming archaic. My example sentence has an 1800s feel to it. At least to very much non-expert me. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068/28 "2024-03-20T15:24:15Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > To me, both parts, “sun” and “rise”, in “sunrise” are nouns. I’d say noun + verb sun + (to) rise sun + (to) set Looking up the [etymology for upset](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/upset#:~:text=Etymology,%E2%80%9Csetup%3B%20arrangement%E2%80%9D), it seems to be preposition + verb > From [Middle English](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English) _[upset](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/upset#Middle_English)_ (“the act of setting up; establishment”), from [Middle English](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English) _[upsetten](https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=upsetten&action=edit&redlink=1)_ , corresponding to _[up-](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/up-#English)_ +‎ _[set](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/set#English)_ . Cognate with [Middle Low German](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Low_German) _[upset](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/upset#Middle_Low_German)_ (“setup; arrangement”). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068/29 "2024-03-20T15:30:26Z")
I am surprised that I made it here before the learned Johanna to discuss [the linguistics of nominal compounds!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_compound) ISTM that what we’ve got here is mostly an analysis of different types of determinative compounds: > [@](#): > > In general, the meaning of a compound noun is a [specialization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialization_(linguistics)) of the meaning of its head. The [modifier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_modifier) limits the meaning of the head. This is most obvious in [descriptive compounds](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Descriptive_compound&action=edit&redlink=1) (known as _[karmadharaya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karmadharaya)_ compounds in the Sanskrit tradition), in which the modifier is used in an attributive or appositional manner. A _[blackboard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackboard)_ is a particular kind of board, which is (generally) black, for instance. > > In [determinative compounds](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Determinative_compound&action=edit&redlink=1), however, the relationship is not attributive. For example, a _[footstool](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footstool)_ is not a particular type of stool that is like a foot. Rather, it is a _stool for one’s foot or feet_. (It can be used for sitting on, but that is not its primary purpose.) In a similar manner, an _[office manager](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_manager)_ is the manager of an office, an _[armchair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chair#Armrests)_ is a _chair with arms_, and a _[raincoat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raincoat)_ is a _coat against the rain_. These relationships, which are expressed by [prepositions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preposition) in English, would be expressed by [grammatical case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_case) in other languages. (Compounds of this type are known as _[tatpurusha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatpurusha)_ in the Sanskrit tradition.) > > Both of the above types of compounds are called [endocentric](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocentric) compounds because the semantic head is contained within the compound itself—a blackboard is a type of board, for example, and a [footstool](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footstool) is a type of [stool](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chair). > > However, in another common type of compound, the [exocentric](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocentric) (known as a [bahuvrihi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahuvrihi) compound in the Sanskrit tradition), the semantic head is not explicitly expressed. A _[redhead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair)_, for example, is not a kind of head, but is a person _with_ red hair. Similarly, a _[blockhead](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blockhead)_ is also not a head, but a person with a head that is as hard and unreceptive as a block (i.e. stupid). And a _[lionheart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionheart_(disambiguation))_ is not a type of heart, but a person with a heart like a lion (in its bravery, courage, fearlessness, etc.). > > There is a general way to tell the two apart. In a compound “[X . Y]”: > > - Can one substitute Y with a noun that _is_ a Y, or a verb that _does_ Y? This is an endocentric compound. > - Can one substitute Y with a noun that is _with_ Y? This is an exocentric compound. AFAICT, the concept of a nominal compound combining a noun with an adverb is not really very helpful at all in this context. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068/30 "2024-03-20T17:46:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Quora is a garbage site… Slight tangent on this, for people who remember Quora as being really good back in the day. It has changed drastically in recent years and calling it a garbage site is almost too kind. They’ve done away with moderation, [they actively use AI to answer questions](https://help.quora.com/hc/en-us/articles/15204996933780-What-are-LLMs-and-how-does-Quora-use-them) (it isn’t just rogue users doing it, it is Quora itself), and they’ve prioritized spam click-bait questions with BS answers. This article goes into detail: > **[One of Our Best Websites Died While No One Was Looking](https://slate.com/technology/2024/02/quora-what-happened-ai-decline.html)** > > The once-thriving site used to answer our most specific questions. But users are fleeing. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068/31 "2024-03-22T01:42:24Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I did some more digging, and while I still think a good case can be made for “rise” as a verb, the expert consensus seems to be that you’re right about it being a noun in this case. But I’m also right that “sun” in this case is an attributive noun, so effectively an adjective. It’s subtly different from just saying that “sun” and “rise” are both nouns Completely agree. The fact that “sun” is attributive is indicated by its bearing the stress in the compund. I cannot think offhand of any noun+adverb compound. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068/32 "2024-03-22T08:09:24Z")
Isn’t “sunrise” just short for “the sun’s rise”? “Rise”, in this case, is a noun. How about “lightning strike”? I don’t think anyone would argue that the “strike” here isn’t a noun. What’s the difference? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-where-is-the-adverb-in-the-noun-adverb-compound-noun-sunrise/999068.md?page=1)