# Grammar Question - which sentence is correct, and why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 2, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183 "2012-08-02T15:54:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/101 "2012-08-03T16:44:43Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > As I told my students when teaching English, “You are the one using the language, so use it to say what you want to say”. > > For example: > > “Shock and awe was the tactic Bush hoped would quickly win Iraq.” Or > “Shock and awe were the tactics Bush hoped would quickly win Iraq.” > > The singular form works here, because the two elements of shock and awe were essential in combination to form a unified tactic. I hope you told your students to put shock and awe in quotation marks, then. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/102 "2012-08-03T17:06:36Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > By this logic, “Babies eat apples” and “Apples eat babies” are both correct? That the flipped version also makes sense is chance, not rule. They’re both correct grammar. One is just more likely to occur than the other. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/103 "2012-08-03T17:31:36Z")
> [@s0meguy](#): > > They’re both correct. Technical grammatical rules made up by some group of people (probably old men, not that it matters at all) are totally meaningless, all that really matters in language is that you can understand the person thats trying to communicate something. Yes, say enything wut we want, not follow no dumb rulez us! Of order words, form words matter no! It because sense to make but follow you thing want! Old men, dumb, not have me no tell rite. Old man shutup, rulz grammer, stoopid. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/104 "2012-08-03T22:22:55Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > They’re both correct grammar. One is just more likely to occur than the other. Actually this is the most severe type of grammar error, one of syntax. Which of these sentences is more incorrect: Correct version: Bobby and I played tennis. Bobby I and tennis played. Bobby and me played tennis. If the words are changed in order is usually by far the most severe error you can make in English because there is usually a dramatic change in intended meaning: Take one pill twice a day. Take two pills once a day. The man killed Bobby. Bobby killed the man. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/105 "2012-08-03T22:30:52Z")
An idiot is you. Diagram that. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/106 "2012-08-03T22:32:04Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Those aren’t inverted sentences, though, so flipping them doesn’t do much. You’ve changed the subject and the object of the verb. Imagine the following sentences: “With their fingers eat babies” and “Babies eat with their fingers” Do you see how with either arrangement the subject is still babies? No I agree with you, I was pointing out that flipping led to the wrong conclusion by chance, and that if flipping does happen to work, that’s not a rule. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/107 "2012-08-03T22:38:14Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Actually this is the most severe type of grammar error, one of syntax. > > Which of these sentences is more incorrect: > Correct version: Bobby and I played tennis. > Bobby I and tennis played. > Bobby and me played tennis. > > If the words are changed in order is usually by far the most severe error you can make in English because there is usually a dramatic change in intended meaning: > Take one pill twice a day. > Take two pills once a day. > > The man killed Bobby. > Bobby killed the man. “The man killed Bobby” and “Bobby killed the man” are syntactically identical in regard to ‘killed’. More simply put, “Bobby killed Tommy” and “Tommy killed Bobby” are syntactically identical in all regards. Grammar defines the structure of communication, not it’s content. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/108 "2012-08-03T22:46:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > “The man killed Bobby” and “Bobby killed the man” are syntactically identical in regard to ‘killed’. More simply put, “Bobby killed Tommy” and “Tommy killed Bobby” are syntactically identical in all regards. Grammar defines the structure of communication, not it’s content. Are you saying meaning and syntax are not in the same field as grammar? Show me a system of editorial grammar marks that doesn’t include “word choice” or “word order” in some form or another. Typical word choice error: He wrote the picture. He drew the essay. Typical word order error: He threw the ball up. (towards the ceiling) He threw up the ball. (He shouldn’t have swallowed it.) If successful communication isn’t the main goal of grammar, then what is? ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/109 "2012-08-04T00:29:30Z")
My god, there are so many unrelated topics and tangents to the OP that are brought up here–grammatical redundancy, double transformation, aspect (the come/go question) and on and on… I can hardly catalog them. But I can offer, for what it’s worth, a professional linguist’s attempt at explanation or summary of any particular, defined issue someone wants to discuss. Not saying I know everything, so please don’t attack me, but I do carry information about many of the issues above. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/110 "2012-08-04T02:25:10Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Typical word order error: > He threw the ball up. (towards the ceiling) > He threw up the ball. (He shouldn’t have swallowed it.) Which one is wrong? They’re both perfectly good sentences. He might have done either one of those things. Syntax describes the structure of sentences. The content of the sentence is totally irrelevant. You are talking about whether a statement is true or not. That has nothing to do with grammar. Look up logic or philosophy for that. ---
**Author:** ![Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/2acd7d/32.png) [@Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Full_Tilt_Boogie)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/111 "2012-08-04T02:36:35Z")
> [@NBCGLX](#): > > With your new promotion comes new challenges and responsibilities. > > Or, > > With your new promotion come new challenges and responsibilities. > > The issue is comes vs. come, and I’m not sure which is correct, nor why. I’m leaning toward the use of “come” because challenges and responsibilities are plural. Which one is correct and why? Thanks!! 🙂 It’s comes, _not_ come (subject-object clausal agreement). Let’s write it another way to make it clearer: Your (‘new’ is tautology and therefore redundant) promotion brings with it… You don’t say, “Your promotion bring with it…” do you? And besides, the opening sentence (“With your new promotion comes new challenges and responsibilities.”) is incorrect anyway, as you don’t begin a sentence with a preposition - it should read: _ **“Your promotion brings with it new challenges and responsibilities.”** _ ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/112 "2012-08-04T02:40:57Z")
> [@Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](#): > > It’s comes, _not_ come (subject-object clausal agreement). > > Let’s write it another way to make it clearer: > > Your (‘new’ is tautology and therefore redundant) promotion brings with it… > > You don’t say, “Your promotion bring with it…” do you? > > And besides, the opening sentence (“With your new promotion comes new challenges and responsibilities.”) is incorrect anyway, as you don’t begin a sentence with a preposition - it should read: _ **“Your promotion brings with it new challenges and responsibilities.”** _ Uh, you’ve just changed the verb from “come” to “bring,” thereby changing (actually reversing) the subject-verb-object relationship. The promotion does the bringing, but the challenges and responsibilities do the coming. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/113 "2012-08-04T02:41:29Z")
Maybe you don’t but there’s no reason not to. > [@Superhal](#): > > No I agree with you, I was pointing out that flipping led to the wrong conclusion by chance, and that if flipping does happen to work, that’s not a rule. It’s easiest to identify agreement errors and so forth when looking at a standard SVO sentence. They’re not flipping it for shits and giggles. They’re undoing the inversion created by the writer when he put the sentence together in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/2acd7d/32.png) [@Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Full_Tilt_Boogie)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/114 "2012-08-04T02:45:53Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Uh, you’ve just changed the verb from “come” to “bring,” thereby changing (actually reversing) the subject-verb-object relationship. The promotion does the bringing, but the challenges and responsibilities do the coming. And that changes the fact that the initial sentences were both wrong, how, precisely? ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/115 "2012-08-04T03:01:28Z")
> [@s0meguy](#): > > all that really matters in language is that you can understand the person thats trying to communicate something. No, not all. You place “all” the burden on the receiver. No way. What also matters is that the person who’s trying to communicate something can make himself understood. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/116 "2012-08-04T03:15:40Z")
> [@Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](#): > > Let’s write it another way to make it clearer: No, you’ve changed it to a completely different sentence with a different subject. It simply doesn’t apply. > [@](#): > > (‘new’ is tautology and therefore redundant) Wrong. > [@](#): > > You don’t say, “Your promotion bring with it…” do you? Irrelevant. > [@](#): > > And besides, the opening sentence (“With your new promotion comes new challenges and responsibilities.”) is incorrect anyway Wrong. > [@](#): > > , as you don’t begin a sentence with a preposition Wrong. > [@](#): > > it should read: _ **“Your promotion brings with it new challenges and responsibilities.”** _ That’s a completely different sentence. You fail my English class. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/117 "2012-08-04T06:05:30Z")
Three pages of this? “Challenges and responsibilities” is the subject of the sentence. They are what is coming. “With your new promotion” is the object. The verb matches the subject. A challenge comes; challenges come (or challenges and responsibilities come). “Come” is correct. What I think is confusing some people is how easily the sentence can be rewritten. You can easily rewrite it so promotion is the subject and challenges and responsibilities are the object. In that case, comes would be the correct verb. I think some people did this without realizing it. You new promotion comes with new challenges and responsibilities. With new challenges and responsibilities, comes your new promotion. Just focus on the “with” - that indicates the object. Then the subject is the other one. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/118 "2012-08-04T14:14:46Z")
> [@Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](#): > > And that changes the fact that the initial sentences were both wrong, how, precisely? They weren’t both wrong, just one of them. “Come” was correct. The subject of the verb was “new challenges and responsibilities,” which is plural, so the verb is in the third person plural. “Your new job” is the object of the preposition “with.” With your new job come new challenges and responsibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/2acd7d/32.png) [@Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Full_Tilt_Boogie)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/119 "2012-08-05T00:46:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, you’ve changed it to a completely different sentence with a different subject. It simply doesn’t apply. > > Wrong. > > Irrelevant. > > Wrong. > > Wrong. > > That’s a completely different sentence. > > You fail my English class. And I’m supposed to take anyone who communicates largely in monosyllabics seriously? I doubt you could run an English class. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183/120 "2012-08-05T00:55:50Z")
Monosyllables, not monosyllabics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question-which-sentence-is-correct-and-why/630183.md?page=7)