# Grammar question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 9, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555 "2003-04-09T14:59:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hobie\_the\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Hobie\_the\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hobie_the_One)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/1 "2003-04-09T14:59:59Z")
I don’t know why I always seem to ask these but… Suppose I am refering to a professional sports team. Since I’m from western PA, That’d be the Steelers. What form of the past tense of ‘to be’ should I use? The team is singular. There is only one team. It is, however made up of individuals who are all part of the team. In other words, “the Steelers were easily able to defeat the Cleveland Browns.” That sounds just fine to me 😃 but isnt the subject of that sentence singular? “The Steelers **was** easily able to defeat the Cleveland Browns,” just sounds weird. Help? ---
**Author:** ![psiekier](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psiekier/32/116_2.png) [@psiekier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psiekier)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/2 "2003-04-09T15:12:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hobie the One \* > \*\*Suppose I am refering to a professional sports team. Since I’m from western PA, That’d be the Steelers. > > What form of the past tense of ‘to be’ should I use? > > The team is singular. There is only one team. > > It is, however made up of individuals who are all part of the team. > > In other words, “the Steelers were easily able to defeat the Cleveland Browns.” That sounds just fine to me 😃 but isnt the subject of that sentence singular? > > “The Steelers **was** easily able to defeat the Cleveland Browns,” just sounds weird.\*\* Use the plural form, i.e. “the Steelers were easily able to defeat the Cleveland Browns.” Generally, in American English, we use the form of verbs that correspond superficially to the noun that forms the subject. For example, we all know (except for the Iraqi Minister of Information, apparently) “the US Army is currently in Baghdad,” and “the Cleveland Browns will never amount to anything.” In British English, however, verbs are typically formed to match the single/group aspect you’re puzzling over. For example, if Brits could understand our fascination with football, they would say, “Pittsburgh were easily able to defeat the Cleveland Browns.” Sounds goofy, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Hobie\_the\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Hobie\_the\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hobie_the_One)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/3 "2003-04-09T15:17:02Z")
Thanks Pete. But now I’m more confused. Take your example “The US Army is currently in Baghdad.” Compare this to “The Steelers are in Cleveland this weekend.” Same idea, [the group] is somewhere but two different forms of the verb. h. ---
**Author:** ![troub](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troub/32/14802_2.png) [@troub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/troub)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/4 "2003-04-09T15:18:30Z")
I always assumed that most sports team names are in the plural form (Steelers, Browns, Cardinals, Cubs, Diamondbacks, etc.) because the team name is meant to refer to the individuals as a group, much like you would refer to any other group like doctors, girl scouts, Teamsters, Freemasons, etc. Also supporting this is the fact that individuals on the teams are often referred to using the singular form of the team name, ie “The legendary Cardinal, Stan Musial” or “For what team does Sammy Sosa play? He’s a Cub.” Go ahead and use the plural form without remorse 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/5 "2003-04-09T15:40:56Z")
U.S. sports team nicknames generally take the plural form, probably because most team names are plural nouns. Note that if you refer to the team by their city/college, the singular is used: Syracuse rules! The Orangemen rule! **psiekier** is right in a more general sense. In the US, most collective nouns take the singular, while in the UK, it’s the plural: US: The committee is meeting today. UK: The committee are meeting today. ---
**Author:** ![threephi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@threephi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threephi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/6 "2003-04-09T15:45:32Z")
The fashion in naming new sports teams in the US for the last few years has been to use singular forms for the collective team, eg the Miami Heat, Orlando Magic, New York Liberty, etc. etc. But I would still treat these nouns as plurals when referring to the whole team, eg. “The Heat are playing the Jazz tonight” ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/7 "2003-04-09T17:42:38Z")
When a noun is singular in form but collective in meaning, the noun can take a singular or a plural verb, as long as it is consistently singular or plural within the piece of writing. But when the noun is already plural in form, and refers to a group of people, then it always takes a plural verb. From Bryan A. Garner, _A Dictionary of Modern American Usage_ 133 (1998), s.v. “collective nouns”: > [@](#): > > A collective noun names an aggregate of individuals or things with a singular form. For example, _ensemble_, _group_, and _team_ refer to several people, but each word is singular. > > The main consideration in skillfully handling them is consistency in the use of a singular or plural verb. If, in the beginning of an essay, the phrasing is _the faculty was_, then every reference to _faculty_ as a noun should be singular throughout the whole. On the other hand, a writer who wishes to emphasize the individual persons more than the body of persons may decide to write _the faculty were_, though _members of the faculty were_ is preferable because it’s more accurate. > > . . . . > > Apart from the desire for consistency, there is little “right” or “wrong” on this subject: collective nouns take sometimes a singular and sometimes a plural verb. The trend in AmE is to regard the collective noun as expressing a unit; hence, the singular is the usual form. When the individuals in the collection or group receive the emphasis, the plural verb is acceptable \. But generally in AmE collective nouns take singular verbs, as in _the jury finds_, _the panel is_, _the committee believes_, _the board has decided_, etc. The same considerations are absent when the noun is already plural, and therefore not “collective.” The only exception is when the noun is expressing an amount that is the subject of a predicate nominative whose number is singular (“six hours is a long time,” “ten dollars is not very much money”) or where such a singular appositive is implied (“six hours is too long [a time],” (ten dollars is not enough [money]"). But “the Steelers” is not expressing an amount and so takes a plural verb. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hobie the One \* > **What form of the past tense of ‘to be’ should I use?** ? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/8 "2003-04-09T18:31:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hobie the One \* > \*\*I don’t know why I always seem to ask these but… \*\* If you do indeed ask such questions on a regular basis, may i suggest getting yourself a good usage dictionary? As you’re in the United States, i would recommend Bryan Garner, _A Dictionary of Modern American Usage_, which is, in my opinion, the best currently available. If you want a more prescriptivist approach to grammar and usage, and one that takes more of an English (as opposed to American) viewpoint, you could also try R.W. Burchfield, _Fowler’s Modern Engllish Usage_ (3rd ed.). ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/9 "2003-04-09T18:35:24Z")
Very awkward with either Chicago or Boston in the AL. “Fred Lynn was a magnificent Red Sock” sounds like the man was an outstanding item of hosiery. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/10 "2003-04-09T19:37:14Z")
as a rule Steelers Rule! Pittsburgh Rules! (except not in Hockey, but then, that doesn’t have too many rules) ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/11 "2003-04-09T19:40:06Z")
Don’t forget that often there is an implied subject. E.g., the members of the committee **are** here. The committee **are** anxious to start. [Members, a regular plural noun, is the main idea. And so when ‘committee’ takes its place in the second sentence, it, too, is plural.] The will of the committee **is** not to be underestimated. The committee **is** not afraid to weild its power. [Since committee stands in for the singular ‘will,’ it, too, is singular.] This gets back to the above mentioned idea of whether you’re referring to the collective as a collective unit (singular), or as a collection of members (plural). E.g., The Steelers players are hyped up. The Steelers are here to win! The Steelers footbal team is a force to be reckoned with. The Steelers is one of the best franchises in the country. People may choose the singular or the plural depending whether, in their mind, there is a more dominant singular or plural idea to which the collective noun is attached. Another way to look at it is to ask “all of them” or “each of them”? The flock is charging. The flock are going to eat you. In the first sentence, I’m thinking all of them at once. In the second sentence I’m thinking each of them and as many of them in turn, as individuals. ## Peace. The Hivemind are telling me to stop now. ---
**Author:** ![Hobie\_the\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Hobie\_the\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hobie_the_One)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/12 "2003-04-09T19:46:56Z")
**mhendo** It’s not actually often. And I did know that the plural verb would be correct but you can see where my quandary set in. Thanks for the suggestions and I might just go out and purchase one of these books. Although it’s much easier just to ask here…😉 \*\* Isosleepy \*\* Amen. How many days until football preseason? \*\* moriah \*\* > [@](#): > > The Steelers footbal team is a force to be reckoned with. The Steelers is one of the best franchises in the country. How true, but what I am getting is that the first is correct but the second would be “The Steelers _are_ one of the best franchises in country.” Since Steelers is a plural noun. > [@](#): > > Another way to look at it is to ask “all of them” or “each of them”? “The Steelers are in Cleveland.” Each of them and all of them but in this sense I would think I mean all of them, so wouldn’t it be _is_. You can see what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Hobie\_the\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Hobie\_the\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hobie_the_One)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/13 "2003-04-09T19:54:36Z")
\*\* brianmelendez \*\* I’m sorry. Lack of sleep and the fact that I’m busy at work are making me rude. Thank you for the excellent answer and the cite. That was pretty much what I was looking for. I knew what the answer was but I wasn’t sure why. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/14 "2003-04-11T01:15:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hobie the One \* > **[“The Steelers _are_ one of the best franchises in the country.” Since Steelers is a plural noun.** Nope. “One of the best franchises” is singular. “One” is the predicate nominative in the sentence, while “of the best franchises” is a prepositional phrase which doesn’t change the number of “one.” Since “one” is singular, so is the noun being equated with it, i.e., “the Steelers.” Consider this: “Is the Steelers a footaball team.” “Yes the Steelers is one.” Which is a shortened from of: “Yes, the Steelers is a football team.” And, going back to the sentence in question… “The Steelers [team] is one of the best franchises in the country.” ## Peace. Is it proper to say, “The yolk of eggs **are** white” or, “The yolk of eggs **is** white?” ---
**Author:** ![Hobie\_the\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Hobie\_the\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hobie_the_One)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/15 "2003-04-11T12:44:06Z")
> [@](#): > > “One of the best franchises” is singular. True, but that’s not the subject of the sentence. If you had said “One of the best franchises is the Steelers,” then I would have agreed with you. You are actually bringing up what made me question this in the first place. The example I used is that of “the Steelers are in Cleveland.” What you are actually saying is that “the Steelers [team] are [is] in Cleveland.” See what I mean. BTW it would be proper to say “the yolk of eggs is **yellow**.”😃 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/16 "2003-04-11T13:15:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by threephi \* > \*\*The fashion in naming new sports teams in the US for the last few years has been to use singular forms for the collective team, eg the Miami Heat, Orlando Magic, New York Liberty, etc. etc. > > But I would still treat these nouns as plurals when referring to the whole team, eg. “The Heat are playing the Jazz tonight” \*\* Yeah, but generally in American usage, collective nouns take the singular. For example, “Notre Dame’s in town today for the big match.” Although now I must say “Notre Dame are in town today…” doesn’t strike me as peculiar. In my speaking area where I grew up (urban Chicago), the singular verb was always used with singular collectives. We would never say “Miami are having a good year” but rather “Miami’s having a good year.” Of course, plurals such as “the Cubs,” “the Mets,” “the Steelers” and the such would take a plural noun, since the noun itself is plural. While tagging a plural verb on a singular collective sounds relatively ok, putting a singular verb on “the Cubs” sounds just plain ridiculous. Even in British English, where the plural form is more standard, there doesn’t seem to be any clear consensus. ---
**Author:** ![Hobie\_the\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Hobie\_the\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hobie_the_One)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/17 "2003-04-11T13:52:08Z")
> [@](#): > > For example, “Notre Dame’s in town today for the big match.” To put that in terms of the question I asked, wouldn’t it be, “the Fighting Irish **are** in town for the big match?” ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/18 "2003-04-11T17:46:46Z")
What do you call someone who plays for the Steelers: “A member of The Steelers.” or, “A Steeler.” The correct answer is “A Steeler.” “The Steelers” is a group of men who call themselves “steeler”. Each member of the team is a Steeler. So the plural form is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Hobie\_the\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Hobie\_the\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hobie_the_One)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/19 "2003-04-11T17:51:30Z")
> [@](#): > > “The Steelers” is a group of men who call themselves “steeler”. Correct. A **single** group of men. One team. It would be singular, right?😉 ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555/20 "2003-04-11T23:33:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Correct. A single group of men. One team. It would be singular, right? No, a group of animals called “snake” is called “snakes” not “snake.” BTW, it’s not like a group of animals that are called “fish” or “person.” The plural of fish is school and person is people. The plural form of Steeler is Steelers. School:fish = People:person = Snakes:snake = Steelers:steeler [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/167555.md?page=2)