# Grammar question... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 22, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408 "2003-12-22T05:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/1 "2003-12-22T05:15:08Z")
Which is the correct way: “You are older than me.” or “You are older than I” A friend claims the latter is correct because it implies “am” at the end. I say either is fine. So, what say you? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/2 "2003-12-22T05:36:24Z")
Your friend is exactly right. “You are older than me” is wrong. Yes, people say it, but people also say “Me and him went to the show.” Wrong is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/3 "2003-12-22T12:13:42Z")
However, “me” as become so popular that it has been accepted colloquially. I would hesitate to use it in writing, however. Why write something that you know is grammatically incorrect? It has not become as accepted as “It is me.” ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/4 "2003-12-22T13:00:23Z")
If a pronoun is needed after the word “than,” chances are that the subjective form of the pronoun is correct. He is taller than she. (is) You are smarter than I. (am) There are occasional exceptions. This sentence could be correct either way: I like you more than she. (I like you more than she likes you.) I like you more than her. (I like you more than I like her.) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/5 "2003-12-22T13:02:14Z")
In my own personal grammar, “than” is also a preposition so while the second is also correct (if a little stilted) so is the first. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/6 "2003-12-22T13:04:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary T \* > \*\*Your friend is exactly right. > > “You are older than me” is wrong. Yes, people say it, but people also say “Me and him went to the show.” Wrong is wrong. \*\* The test for correct grammar is to separate the thoughts and/or complete the statement. I went to the show. He went to the show. He and I went to the show. You are older the me. Your are older than me am. Both wrong Your are older than I. You are olded than I am. Both correct. Sloppy speech makes people sound uneducated and lazy. “Beware of the Cog” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/7 "2003-12-22T15:45:53Z")
In casual or colloquial speech or writing, the answer is easy: both are correct. In formal speech, it’s a much more difficult question that language experts have been arguing about for the past century. William Safire has a discussion of this issue in his book _No Uncertain Terms_. The underlying question is whether “than” is acting as a conjunction, requiring I, or as a preposition, allowing me. Here’s the “me” side. > [@](#): > > “We regularly hear _than I_ and _than me_,” writes Kenneth G. Wilson in _The Columbia Guide to Standard American English_. “Some commentators think that the conjunction is currently more frequent than the preposition, but both are unquestionably standard.” > > “I would allow _wiser than us_ because it is perfectly normal English usage,” says Robert Burchfield, retired editor of the _Oxford English Dictionary_ and most recent reviser of _Fowler’s Modern English Usage_, from his home in Oxbridgeshire… > > Henry Fowler himself noted in an earlier edition, “The prepositional use of _than_ is now so common colloquially (He is older _than me_) that the bare subjective pronoun in such a position strikes the reader as pedantic.” (By _subjective_ he uses a synonym for _nominative_, the case required by the _conjunctive_.) So what is a body supposed to do when engaged in formal speech or speech? The discussion in Safire, after all, came about because Queen Elizabeth II used “wiser than us” in a formal speech. Using “I” or the equivalent is always safe, because it satisfies those pedants who, despite their protestations, truly care more about their rules than they do about the English language. But I say that unless you are in a situation in which you will be penalized by pedants you should always choose whichever suits your context and your audience. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/8 "2003-12-22T22:02:08Z")
OK just do whatever feels right. To the abyss with proper speedn, writing, etc. etc. With every one doing what is right in his own estimation we will eventually communicate with grunts and groand etc. * * * “Beware of the Cog” ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/9 "2003-12-22T22:10:47Z")
Oxbridgeshire? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/10 "2003-12-22T22:26:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spingears \* > \*\*OK just do whatever feels right. To the abyss with proper speedn, writing, etc. etc. > > With every one doing what is right in his own estimation we will eventually communicate with grunts and groand etc. > > * * * > > “Beware of the Cog” \*\* Hint. Never, ever post when steam is coming out of your ears. It obscures the keyboard. 😃 P.S. Ox **ford** shire. Interesting bit of Freudian slippage there. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/11 "2003-12-22T22:54:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spingears \* > \*\*With every one doing what is right in his own estimation we will eventually communicate with grunts and groand etc. > \*\* cite?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/12 "2003-12-22T23:06:11Z")
Here’s a dissenting opinion from copy-editor at the Washington Post [Bill Walsh](http://www.theslot.com): > [@](#): > > If you don’t want to risk angering the purists, go ahead and be taller than I (am). But if you’re a regular old tall person and not a tall professor of English, you probably didn’t mean to imply the word am. You meant to say you’re taller than me, and you’re right. I don’t mind being treated as an object. I’m trying to think of a good example of what he means **I’m taller than 6ft** obviously isn’t implying an ‘is tall’ 🙂 **I’m taller than a house** could be either way. **I’m taller than Shade** is apparently normally interpreted as having a silent **is tall** Can anyone think of an object you can be **[somthing]er than** that doesn’t have that property itself, so couldn’t have an implied verb after it? “I’m clever than hell” would work, but is obviously way too colloquial 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/13 "2003-12-23T01:47:29Z")
Despite the arguments that you can do anything you want, and that previously incorrect wording is being accepted, I can tell you emphatically that the kind of people who make standardized tests do not have this point of view. The answer is “than I”, because “am” is implied at the end. I’ve tutored many a kid for the SAT II Writing test, using real tests from the real writers. Trust me on this. ---
**Author:** ![sundog66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@sundog66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sundog66)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/14 "2003-12-23T03:55:14Z")
As a number of people have already said so far, the prescriptively correct version is “than I.” However, I think that most native English speakers (when untarnished by preconceived about grammatical correctness) would agree that this is considerably unnatural. The “rule” is based on faulty analogy of the English words I/me to the Latin ego/me, and without even getting into any deep analysis, I can say that for me, the mere fact that a grammatical construction as common as “than me” has to be “corrected” should arouse suspicion. Nobody ever had to tell people not to say “Me go to the store,” and yet I never hear this. At what point do we give the native speaker the benefit of the doubt? When learning a foreign language, don’t you assume that a native speaker knows his own language? Why should English be any different? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spingears \* > \*\*The test for correct grammar is to separate the thoughts and/or complete the statement. > \*\* Any linguist will tell you that the “test for correct grammar” is whether native speakers of the language say it. If they do, it is correct grammar. The idea that we need only “separate the thoughts and/or complete the statement” is preposterous: “You and I are here.” Separating the thoughts out, we get “I are here.” Ah, I guess “are” is wrong. It should be “You and I am here.” “Who did this?” (pointing) “Him” Completing the statement, we get “Him did this.” Ah, I guess the pointer should have said “he.” And I’m sure there are some diehard prescriptive grammarians out there who would agree that, logically, it should be “he,” again based on false analogy to Latin, but I dare anyone to say “he” in isolation like that and see if it doesn’t get any funny looks or even a “what?” ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/15 "2003-12-23T04:12:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sundog66 \* > \*\*The idea that we need only “separate the thoughts and/or complete the statement” is preposterous: > > “You and I are here.” Separating the thoughts out, we get “I are here.” Ah, I guess “are” is wrong. It should be “You and I am here.” \*\* Boy, you really missed the point on this one. Your misconception is, indeed, preposterous. The separating out gives “You are here” and “I am here.” If someone were to have said “You and me are here,” this would have pointed out its incorrectness (from “Me am here” obviously being wrong). Where you got the idea that one has to use the wrong verb form in an exercise intended to identify the correct pronoun is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/16 "2003-12-23T04:23:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cardinal \* > **Despite the arguments that you can do anything you want,…** Nope, wrong. Nobody here is arguing that you can do “anything you want,” even on this issue. What has happened is that everyone who understands the subject has argued that this is not a simple-minded right or wrong question. > [@](#): > > **I can tell you emphatically that the kind of people who make standardized tests do not have this point of view. The answer is “than I”, because “am” is implied at the end.** Which is why I said specifically you should use “than I” when “you are in a situation in which you will be penalized by pedants…” This doesn’t make the pedants right; it just means that context is king, exactly as I said earlier. ---
**Author:** ![sundog66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@sundog66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sundog66)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/17 "2003-12-24T00:18:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary T \* > \*\*Boy, you really missed the point on this one. Your misconception is, indeed, preposterous. > > The separating out gives “You are here” and “I am here.” If someone were to have said “You and me are here,” this would have pointed out its incorrectness (from “Me am here” obviously being wrong). Where you got the idea that one has to use the wrong verb form in an exercise intended to identify the correct pronoun is beyond me. \*\* So when you “separate thoughts out” of _You and I are here_ you come up with _I am here_? That’s funny, I didn’t see the word _am_ in the original. By your logic, that when separating thoughts out you can also change the form of the word to make it grammatical, we could also start with _You and me are here_ and yield _I am here_. If you can change _are_ to _am_, why can’t you change _me_ to _I_? And if you try to come back at me with how it’s necessary to reconjugate the verb for correct person and number, then I can likewise point out that it’s necessary to change the case of the pronoun from oblique to nominative, because while the former can be used in forming coordinate noun phrases, only the latter can be used as the sole subject of a finite clause. Linguists, unlike prescriptive grammarians, don’t arbitrarily chastise perfectly well-formed English sentences such as “You and me are here” based on false analogies and then try to prove why it’s correct using some twisted ad hoc logic. Instead, linguists listen to how people _do_ talk, and then, taking that as a given (rather than some topic up for debate), they try to figure out the underlying grammatical wherefores. ---
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/18 "2003-12-24T03:20:25Z")
Wow thanks guys. To me, saying “you are older than i” seemed rather stilted. I had actually mentioned to my friend that colloquially i was not incorrect and then he said “yes you are”, which of course set me on this little mission. Nice to know all of this! I’m going to go and tell him some of the things in this thread ;). ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/220408/19 "2003-12-24T05:09:10Z")
Exapno, I don’t know why you think I was picking on you. I don’t even know exactly to what you think I’m referring. Settle down, please. Objects: me, you, him, her, them, us Subjects: I, you, he, she, they, we Only subjects can do things, including “be” (including all conjugations, like “am” and “are”). If the person is having something done to or for or (preposition) him, then you use the object word. If he is doing something, then you use the subject word, even for yourself. Here is where I’ll admit that I do it incorrectly too, because if I insist on it too much, I’ll confirm everyone’s suspicions that I’m an enormous geek. I do try to get it write in formal writing, though.