# Grammar question **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 9, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063 "2013-07-09T18:39:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_News_Baboon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/1 "2013-07-09T18:39:57Z")
I am working on a post card for my daughter’s school. The motto is as follows: Fine Arts Matters in education. Ok, am I wrong to say this is incorrect? I asked the powers that be and their response is: “It is in the bylaws as Fine Arts Matters in Education. Fine Arts as a whole is singular as in the fine arts to encompass all of the fine arts from visual arts to theater arts and more, not just “fine art.” Make sense?” I’m on the verge of a snark breakdown for other reasons involving this project but this is really bothering me. 1. I have degrees in “the fine arts” so the explanation seems a bit patronizing. 2. She correctly says it’s singular… Shouldn’t it be ‘matter’ then, as in “The Fine Arts matter in education”. I feel strongly about this - it’s a school and grammar should be correct. If it is indeed correct, could someone please explain? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/2 "2013-07-09T18:43:38Z")
As to whether it’s “matter” or “matters”: Matter is used for plural, matters for singular. This works with many verbs. Examples: A dog copes with the heat; dogs cope with the heat. A horse races, but horses race. A person demonstrates, a crowd demonstrates, but people demonstrate and crowds demonstrate. ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_News_Baboon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/3 "2013-07-09T18:46:20Z")
I agree. To me, the error is glaring. ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_News_Baboon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/4 "2013-07-09T18:47:37Z")
Well, at least I think we agree. Could you tell me specifically which you would use? Matter or matters? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/5 "2013-07-09T18:53:58Z")
It is true that there are some nouns which end in “s” and otherwise seem to be plural in number but which are neverthless singular. “Mathematics is the Queen of the Sciences,” not “Mathemetics are the Queen (Queens?) of the Sciences.” “Politics is a contact sport,” not “Politics are a contact sport.” “Language Arts is my favorite class,” not “Language Arts are my favorite class.” Even prefixing “the” to the word doesn’t necessarily change it. “The kinematics of the gyroscope is complex but elegant.” I wouldn’t consider that marked in comparison to the equally licit “The kinematics of the gyroscope are complex but elegant.” For myself, I have always used “the arts” (and its species “the fine arts,” “the useful arts,” “the practical arts,” “the plastic arts,” etc.) as plural. But apart from all this, the construction is left to the school, not the volunteer designer. If you feel so strongly that you cannot abide the instruction of your client principal, who has made it clear that he or she has considered the issue and wishes to use the singluar construction (and so “matters” is needed, as in “Hygiene Matters on a Date”), then you should withdraw from the engagement citing creative differences. Perhaps you could even pointedly observe that “Creative differences prevent me from completing this postcard.” ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/6 "2013-07-09T18:59:22Z")
Without other context, “Fine Arts Matter…” is correct. In this context, there may be some implied words that make “Matter **s** ” correct. For example: “(studying) Fine Arts Matters…” or “(the) Fine Arts (program) Matters…” Perhaps the bylaws should be changed to “Fine Arts” Matters… (the quotes, I think, turn those two words into a singular noun phrase). ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_News_Baboon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/7 "2013-07-09T19:00:33Z")
I agree with that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/8 "2013-07-09T19:04:41Z")
Having **Baboon’s** agreement matters. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/9 "2013-07-09T19:13:58Z")
> [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](#): > > Well, at least I think we agree. Could you tell me specifically which you would use? Matter or matters? (Edited) Not sure. But as to point #2 in your OP, if it is singular, then “matters” should be used, not “matter.” So she would be correct in that instance. ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/10 "2013-07-09T19:23:51Z")
How about this: Fine Arts matters in education [sic] Unless you want to volunteer for them again. ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_News_Baboon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/11 "2013-07-09T19:25:31Z")
I’ve honestly never heard of the plural used in relation to “fine arts”. Yes, I agree. 😉 I’m ok with admitting I’m wrong. I even told the board president (and not “the powers that be”) that whatever they decide is what I will use. All this aside, **Kimmy** is right about the creative differences. This project has been a headache since day one. I think it would be best to finish the post card (don’t think it’s cool to leave them hanging last minute) and not volunteer for future items with this group. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/12 "2013-07-09T19:30:09Z")
At the risk of opening another can of worms, why is “Matters” capitalized in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/13 "2013-07-09T20:07:06Z")
Is it supposed to be a play on words, on both uses of “matters”? One reading could be “Fine Arts Issues in Education” – a discussion of the various topics related to the Fine Arts in educational environments. Matters as a noun, plural, would be correct. If it’s ONLY supposed to be the verb, yes, it would drive me crazy. Would they say “Fine Arts is Important in Education”? If they are trying to play up the double meaning, MAYBE I could live with the “s.” ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_News_Baboon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/14 "2013-07-09T20:15:09Z")
The capital M is from my being an idiot and not checking for typos. It is not capitalized. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/15 "2013-07-09T20:31:08Z")
Googling “Define:Fine Arts” gives it as the plural of “Fine Art.” I agree: the phrase is plural and should be treated as such. “The Fine Arts Matter” is the standard construction. I’ve done a bit more googling and cannot find any source that uses the phrase as a singular noun. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/16 "2013-07-09T20:40:57Z")
Other sources aren’t really relevant though. An organization is allowed to choose their own motto. If you think it displays an embarrassing lack of understanding of verb tense feel free not to utilize them. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/17 "2013-07-09T21:52:44Z")
(but grammar doesn’t). > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Other sources aren’t really relevant though. An organization is allowed to choose their own motto. If you think it displays an embarrassing lack of understanding of verb tense feel free not to utilize them. This comment displays an embarrassing lack of understanding of verb tense. (Apparently you think it is the same thing as number.) To those of you who are saying an organization is free to choose its own slogans, I think you are missing the point. We are talking about a school here, and the parent of a child who attends that school. Is a parent not entitled to be concerned about the quality of education being provided by her child’s school, and that it not not directly promote ignorance and poor grammar in front of the pupils? A parent is a stakeholder in their child’s school, not a mere outsider or hired contractor. They have a right, even a responsibility, to point out any errors the organization might make in pursuit of its mission. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/18 "2013-07-09T22:07:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Googling “Define:Fine Arts” gives it as the plural of “Fine Art.” I agree: the phrase is plural and should be treated as such. “The Fine Arts Matter” is the standard construction. I’ve done a bit more googling and cannot find any source that uses the phrase as a singular noun. You mean any source in general? I can find a few: [Like here](http://www.gadistag.org/departments/student-ministries/resources/lc-articles/fine-arts-is-community---ryan-jordan). [Or here](http://www.emsisd.com/Page/153) (see the left-hand column.) [Here](http://www.cla.purdue.edu/academics/programs/majors/faco.html). (Although in this case, “Fine Arts” refers to a department.) I don’t particularly have an issue with how it is used in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/19 "2013-07-09T22:09:22Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > (but grammar doesn’t). > > This comment displays an embarrassing lack of understanding of verb tense. (Apparently you think it is the same thing as number.) > > To those of you who are saying an organization is free to choose its own slogans, I think you are missing the point. We are talking about a school here, and the parent of a child who attends that school. Is a parent not entitled to be concerned about the quality of education being provided by her child’s school, and that it not not directly promote ignorance and poor grammar in front of the pupils? A parent is a stakeholder in their child’s school, not a mere outsider or hired contractor. They have a right, even a responsibility, to point out any errors the organization might make in pursuit of its mission. Congratulations! Here is your “Stakeholder” medal! Show it off along with your “Participant” trophies and “Offfical Certificates of Excellence in the Field of Having Opinions”! That and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063/20 "2013-07-09T22:20:13Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Congratulations! Here is your “Stakeholder” medal! Show it off along with your “Participant” trophies and “Offfical Certificates of Excellence in the Field of Having Opinions”! That and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee. TRUE STORY: The letters in “Stakeholder” can be rearranged to spell “[NO1CURR](http://images.wikia.com/glee/images/5/55/No1curr.gif)”! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/663063.md?page=2)