# Grammar question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 4, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858 "2014-03-04T20:35:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/21 "2014-03-05T21:31:20Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > When anyone here is typing into a message box, an en-dash or em-dash is not a keystroke. Only a hyphen is. So that’s what everybody uses. Uh, no. One uses the same convention we used back in the days of manual typewriters: a dash is written as \*two \*hyphens. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/22 "2014-03-05T21:50:16Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > When anyone here is typing into a message box, an en-dash or em-dash is not a keystroke. Only a hyphen is. So that’s what everybody uses. There may be a key combination for them which I don’t know or else you could go into Word or some program not here on the Board and copy and paste a proper dash. Nobody does this. I don’t. You don’t. Nobody does. It’s always fun to see someone make an incorrect statement with such arrogant confidence. In fact, I do…always. I do my computing on a Macintosh system, which conveniently provides keystrokes for the en dash (Option-Hyphen) and em dash (Shift-Option-Hyphen). I always use these keystrokes in everything I write, whether online or in a word processing document. Those unfortunate enough to work on Windows systems — where this entirely logical convenience is thought unimportant — have my sympathy. Further, “everybody” I know who cared enough to be unambiguous simply typed two hyphens in a row when they wanted to approximate a dash, if these keystrokes were unavailable. (EDIT: Thank you, Biffy.) Look, I’ll be the first to grant you that many people don’t give a damn about speaking or writing the English language properly. What I object to is being made out to be “wrong” (or at best, “pedantic”) because I do. I don’t find it a burden to use proper punctuation, any more than I find it a burden to continue to write “you are” instead of “UR” in emails, texts or instant messages. Lest you think there are no deleterious effects whatsoever from this trend, my boss uses these affectations regularly in emails to the CEOs of companies we’re pitching. I don’t see any advantage to the president of our company coming off like a Valley Girl in his correspondence. Similarly, I don’t see any advantage to a casual approach to punctuation, particularly in this case when doing it right (I have no problems with two hyphens in place of a dash for online writing) takes so little effort. Clarity and the avoidance of ambiguity are always good things. > [@](#): > > This is casual writing, as is 90% of all writing. Hyphens are perfectly proper here. I disagree. Widely used, yes. “Proper” by any reasonable definition of the word, no. If you’d like to provide a cite for “proper” that goes beyond “because I say so,” I’ll be eager to see it. > [@](#): > > I’ve been a professional writer probably longer than you’ve been a copyeditor and the two professions are professionally scornful of one another. Writers think of copyeditors are stereotypically pedantic, anal, and illiterate. We know that’s not true but it sure feels like it at times. Particularly now, when one of them so spectacularly misreads a sentence and makes a comment from Mars about it. [Hint: Look back at my quote and try to figure out what two things I was comparing.] I’m sure it feels very good to be scornful. By all means, have at it. Meanwhile, I’m not of a mind to play a game with you. If it’s important to you to indicate which of my comments is “from Mars,” be my guest. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/23 "2014-03-05T21:53:01Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > 1. Please may I have the napkin? > 2. May please I have the napkin? > 3. May I please have the napkin? > 4. May I have please the napkin? > 5. May I have the please napkin? > 6. May I have the napkin please? #2 is the rap version. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/24 "2014-03-05T22:07:23Z")
Hyphen: - En dash: – (Alt+0150) Em dash: — (Alt+0151) The reason more people don’t know or use these marks in casual writing is because they aren’t really useful marks. Well, one is useful, but the others exist pretty much only as a shibboleth to give snobby people a way to feel smarter than others without having to work at it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/25 "2014-03-05T22:14:30Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > I > > Look, I’ll be the first to grant you that many people don’t give a damn about speaking or writing the English language properly. What I object to is being made out to be “wrong” (or at best, “pedantic”) because I do. > > I don’t find it a burden to use proper punctuation, any more than I find it a burden to continue to write “you are” instead of “UR” in emails, texts or instant messages. > > I disagree. Widely used, yes. “Proper” by any reasonable definition of the word, no. If you’d like to provide a cite for “proper” that goes beyond “because I say so,” I’ll be eager to see it. There is no such thing as “proper” English, except as far as the place you work for accepts one of several guides- all of which differ on several things. I’ll point out that even the Wiki page on dashes sez \*“Various style guides and national varieties of languages prescribe different guidance on dashes.”. \* Unlike France/French, we have no “Commission on the Proper use of English”. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/26 "2014-03-05T22:27:34Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > My, but you are easily annoyed, aren’t you? > > What happens when someone confuses a colon and a semi-colon? My but: you are easily annoyed, aren’t you? (Heh heh. There’s a colon attached to my but.) > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Really? Do you go offboard here to find a source for a proper dash? I don’t. I always use a hyphen, because using an actual em-dash or en-dash is sheer lunacy in this context. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Hyphen: - > En dash: – (Alt+0150) > Em dash: — (Alt+0151) Call me a sheer lunatic, but I know these and actually use them every once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/27 "2014-03-05T23:02:41Z")
Amazing how many people here not only defend ignorance but actually take pride in it. :rolleyes: The correct grammar, BTW, is “between you and **me**.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/28 "2014-03-05T23:04:35Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > I disagree. Widely used, yes. “Proper” by any reasonable definition of the word, no. If you’d like to provide a cite for “proper” that goes beyond “because I say so,” I’ll be eager to see it. Right after you provide a cite for an authority that proclaims what is proper for typing into message board boxes. While you’re at it, give us all cites saying anyone can decide what is proper anywhere. Last time I looked “proper” was purely a convention applied within a particular venue’s style guide. Does the Dope has a style guide? Nope. Does that mean that anything goes? Technically, yes. As some posters prove. Others often prod them to some semblance of comprehensibility but you’ll note that what they ask for is not uniform. Because there literally can’t be agreement on style without a written guide. Your say so doesn’t count any more than mine. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/29 "2014-03-05T23:11:12Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I agree – understanding the origins of “please” as a phrase is the key to the technically “most correct” usage. . . . > > . . . I myself would consider #3 and #6 both correct from both standpoints, with #6 preferred – the structure of the implied “May I have the napkin, if it pleases you?” being simpler and less convoluted than “May I, if it pleases you, have the napkin?”). > > In my experience the most common usage would be #6 (“May I have the napkin please?”) which to my ear is both more straightforward and lacks the mildly plaintive tone of “May I pleeeaaaase have the napkin?” There is also the unstated and more formal #7, “You wanna throw me that napkin?”, usually used only when dining with the Queen. I’d use please first in speech at an actual table. It gives notice that a request is coming, so that there’s a chance that the person you’re speaking to will be listening by the time you get to ‘napkin’. If there’s any ambient noise at all, launching into the request, with the please at the end, puts one at risk of having to repeat. I think that there’s also a tendency to pair ‘please’ with the word ‘pass’, as in “Please pass the salt.” And I wonder if some of us got into the habit of saying the please first (at the table) because when we were children we were more likely to forget, and be corrected, if we didn’t make sure to say it first. I agree with **wolfpup** that the internal please can act as in intensifier. It’s not always a pleading intensifier, though. If it’s your little brother saying it, it might be pleading. If it’s your dad, it might be a threat. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/30 "2014-03-06T02:29:30Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Right after you provide a cite for an authority that proclaims what is proper for typing into message board boxes. > > While you’re at it, give us all cites saying anyone can decide what is proper anywhere. Last time I looked “proper” was purely a convention applied within a particular venue’s style guide. Does the Dope has a style guide? Nope. > > Does that mean that anything goes? Technically, yes. As some posters prove. Others often prod them to some semblance of comprehensibility but you’ll note that what they ask for is not uniform. Because there literally can’t be agreement on style without a written guide. Your say so doesn’t count any more than mine. What in the world are you going on about? You already said that a hyphen was improper. Now you are arguing the exact opposite. Is it because a copyeditor brought it up? You did for some reason bring up that you hate copyeditors. Like it or not, when you and a copyeditor disagree over copyediting, the copyeditor is going to be right. That’s his job–that’s why you have him go over your work. The fact that he winds up correcting your work means that he was right and you were wrong. Getting mad at every copyeditor isn’t going to change that. I don’t come to GQ to have to read stupid, pointless fights. There are other forums for this perennial debate between the spirit and letter of the law when it comes to grammar. If you must discuss this pointlessness, why not make a GD thread? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/31 "2014-03-06T03:32:04Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Amazing how many people here not only defend ignorance but actually take pride in it. :rolleyes: > > The correct grammar, BTW, is “between you and **me**.” Assuming you were referring to my post 18… NO WAY!! winks not big enough for ya? what about the “only me”…you all good with that? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/32 "2014-03-06T03:45:31Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Assuming you were referring to my post 18… > > NO WAY!! > > winks not big enough for ya? > what about the “only me”…you all good with that? It’s truly amazing the multitude of people who are complaining without properly reading posts - in a thread about copyediting. Amazing isn’t perhaps the right word. Frightening? Appalling? Dispiriting? Extremely eccentric? ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/33 "2014-03-06T03:52:20Z")
Can I slip in here and ask an obvious (if you missed the last 10 years or so): How does one get û (typed as "hold down ALT key while typing ‘150’ on numeric pad) or ù (typed as "hold down ALT key while typing ‘151’ on numeric pad) to come out as dashes on the screen? Need i wrap “html” tags around them? Sample please, in a code box? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/34 "2014-03-06T04:11:34Z")
One gets them by typing the proper alt codes. I didn’t include that leading zero because I was bored. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/35 "2014-03-06T06:44:18Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Right after you provide a cite for an authority that proclaims what is proper for typing into message board boxes. Right…what the hell, let’s not have any rules at all. Let’s just punctuate (and spell, and use grammatical constructions) in whatever way suits us individually. Of course certain rules may be relaxed some in more informal writing such as this. I just don’t happen to feel that “relaxing” means “there is no difference whatsoever between a hyphen and a dash,” which is the exact position you’ve taken. (For everyone’s convenience, I quote you on this score later in this post.) Do you also feel, then, that on this board “their = there = they’re,” and “your” = “you’re”? Is this OK with you? And answer me honestly: when you see someone type “your confusing the issue” on a message board (let’s posit that he/she makes this error frequently enough that it’s not just a careless one-time slip-up), do you think of him/her in exactly equal terms as you do other posters? > [@](#): > > While you’re at it, give us all cites saying anyone can decide what is proper anywhere. So the case you’re making is that **no one** can decide what’s proper anywhere? Because some style guides disagree on a relatively small percentage of the total universe of grammar/punctuation issues, your conclusion is that no rules govern the writing of the English language? > [@](#): > > Last time I looked “proper” was purely a convention applied within a particular venue’s style guide. Does the Dope has a style guide? Nope. So again, this means that anyone can write any way they want, right? Sure they can. But not without consequences. For minor errors or deviations, the consequences will be small, or perhaps nonexistent. For more grievous errors, the consequences (being thought of as less credible, however slightly, than other posters who don’t make these errors) will be greater. If you tell me you don’t take this into consideration in any way, shape or form when you read others’ posts, I’ll call you a liar. Does using a hyphen instead of a dash rise to this standard? Probably not. But saying this is not to say there are no standards whatsoever. My initial objection was to your statement: “I always use a hyphen, because using an actual em-dash or en-dash is sheer lunacy in this context.” The meaning I get from this is “You’re a lunatic if you punctuate a sentence you write on this board correctly.” Sorry, but that’s bullshit. I also notice you’ve ignored the parts in my last post (as well as another’s) where the ease of substituting two hyphens for an em-dash was brought up. This is typical of someone who’s dug himself a hole and has no way out of it. Tell me, would it be “lunacy” to use this convention where a dash rather than a hyphen is called for? > [@](#): > > Does that mean that anything goes? Technically, yes. As some posters prove. Others often prod them to some semblance of comprehensibility but you’ll note that what they ask for is not uniform. Because there literally can’t be agreement on style without a written guide. This statement might hold some water if you could honor my previous request, which was: show me ANY source whatsoever that says using a hyphen in place of a dash is OK in ANY context. If you can’t produce this, then you can’t claim that there’s “disagreement” on this issue. Again, what you seem to be saying is “Because there are disagreements on a small subset of the total number of rules governing grammar and punctuation, therefore there’s no such thing as agreement on ANY rules, and people can write however they want to.” This way lies chaos…but I’m sure you know that. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858/36 "2014-03-06T08:12:35Z")
**Moderator Action** This thread has strayed out of GQ territory. Since it has also strayed away from the OP I’m just going to close it rather than move it. Anyone wishing to discuss the topics in the latter portion of this thread may do so in the appropriate forum (GD or Pit). Thread closed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-question/682858.md?page=1)