# Grammar Questions ". **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 28, 2000, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024 "2000-08-28T13:19:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/21 "2000-08-28T16:36:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by divemaster \* > **I can’t lay this battle aside. My agency has very specific rules for the documents we prepare. Including font = TNR 13 pt. and double spacing between sentences. There are many more of course.** Just out of curiosity–and I’d completely understand if you choose not to answer–what kind of agency do you speak of? Because as I’m sure you can see from the responses, they are in the overwhelming minority in regards to the post-period space thingy; would they really see no value in conforming to the typographical standard of the day? Especially as they circulate their documents so widely? ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/22 "2000-08-28T16:48:26Z")
Lissener wrote: “…wondered who else would have their mind in the gutter.” L, my friend, my mind is in the gutter so much, I’ve often been called a creep.\* I TOTALLY agree with your rage over the '99 thing. I’m hoping they improve WP programs to recognize that construction too. It shouldn’t be too hard to do. - Find the pun and win a prize. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/23 "2000-08-28T16:52:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by divemaster \* > > **I can’t lay this battle aside. My agency has very specific rules for the documents we prepare. Including font = TNR 13 pt. and double spacing between sentences. There are many more of course.** > > Just out of curiosity–and I’d completely understand if you choose not to answer–what kind of agency do you speak of? Because as I’m sure you can see from the responses, they are in the overwhelming minority in regards to the post-period space thingy; would they really see no value in conforming to the typographical standard of the day? Especially as they circulate their documents so widely? \*\* I work for a Federal Government agency in DC. I do not wish to be more specific as to where I work, although I have no problem describing my profession or what it entails. I’m still not sure where they got the bug to require 13 pt. type. It’s not even one of the default setting on the drop-down. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/24 "2000-08-28T17:00:25Z")
I recently was “highly encouraged” to attend a business writing seminar. The new “rule” I learned was this: “Periods and commas go inside quotation marks. Colons and semicolons go outside of quotation marks. _Question marks and exclamation points can go either place._” Example: When I heard this, I said “WTF?” Example: Will you please stop saying “GFY”? I haven’t checked it myself, but supposedly the latest edition of Gregg’s now endorses this practice. I don’t recall learning this in school. It was intimated to me that in the near future, Johnny L.A.'s example will also fall into line with the question mark usage. It makes some common sense, keeping a quoted phrase separate from the overall structure of the sentence, but there are many who will question its validity. This is just one example of a movement partially based on convenience, partially toward reconciling written English with spoken English. Some other interesting and possibly controversial developments include the abolition of punctuation in bullet point lists (unless complete sentences), and allowance for dangling participles. I suppose it won’t be long before the split infinitive steps into the fold. There’s a great thread on the Queen’s English floating around here somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/25 "2000-08-28T17:03:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stuyguy \* > \*\*Lissener wrote: > > “…wondered who else would have their mind in the gutter.” > > L, my friend, my mind is in the gutter so much, I’ve often been called a creep.\* > > I TOTALLY agree with your rage over the '99 thing. I’m hoping they improve WP programs to recognize that construction too. It shouldn’t be too hard to do. > > - Find the pun and win a prize. \*\* You _do_ mean pun **s** , don’t you? Assuming you saw mine . . . ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/26 "2000-08-28T17:07:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sofa King \* > \*\*I recently was “highly encouraged” to attend a business writing seminar. The new “rule” I learned was this: > > “Periods and commas go inside quotation marks. Colons and semicolons go outside of quotation marks. _Question marks and exclamation points can go either place._” > > Example: When I heard this, I said “WTF?” > Example: Will you please stop saying “GFY”? > > I haven’t checked it myself, but supposedly the latest edition of Gregg’s now endorses this practice. I don’t recall learning this in school. It was intimated to me that in the near future, Johnny L.A.'s example will also fall into line with the question mark usage. . . .\*\* This isn’t new; it’s standard. My understanding of this rule has always been this: periods and commas don’t really change the sense of whatever’s inside the quotes, but other punctuation marks can. The placement of the question mark, for example, can determine whether you’re quoting a question, or asking a question that references a quote. This is not the case with commas and periods, so they’re not excluded from the quote. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/27 "2000-08-28T17:12:25Z")
I put the period inside a quotation mark when it is part of the quote, as in, she said, “Yes, I will.” Otherwise, I put the period outside the quotation mark. I used to have a grammar clog up my butt, but I got over it. So long as the communication is clear, people should use whatever grammar convention they are comfortable **with**. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/28 "2000-08-28T17:19:02Z")
Sorry, meant to respond to this as well: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sofa King \* > \*\*. . . Some other interesting and possibly controversial developments include the abolition of punctuation in bullet point lists (unless complete sentences), and allowance for dangling participles. I suppose it won’t be long before the split infinitive steps into the fold. > > There’s a great thread on the Queen’s English floating around here somewhere. \*\* Bullet points without final punctuation is relatively common in business publishing. It’s the kind of thing that I doubt will ever become “standard” one way or the other. I’ve worked with several different companies as a PowerPoint designer, and they all have different takes on this. When I wrote a style manual for one of them, I went for eschewing final puncs. in bullet lists. I see bulleted lists as a graphically empasized series (they’re usually noun phrases), and as such not “worthy” of full punctuation. This is by no means universal, and is obviously somewhat arbitrary. But that’s the entire point of such company-specific style manuals: when there’s a situation with more than once “correct” solution, someone must determine which arbitrary solution will consistently be used; consistency has its own value when dealing with professional publications. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/29 "2000-08-28T17:23:41Z")
I’m sort of split between the traditionalists and the progressives here: I write enough code that I’m completely accustomed to using the logical quoting style, and can’t bear to use the illogical, “correct” method. On the other hand, you can’t see it here, but I always use two spaces after a sentence. A space is intended to separate words, and it seems to make more sense to use more separation between whole sentences. I’m too lazy to go this far with it, but if you absolutely insist on multiple spaces, you can go into charmap and insert character #160 into your reply window, which looks like a space, but won’t get compacted by the HTML, or you can use the HTML code &[sup][/sup]nbsp; , which will turn into a space when viewed. Note that if you use the latter method, you can’t preview or it’ll turn back into an ordinary space. Similarly, you can use charmap to force your quotation marks to be open and close. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/30 "2000-08-28T17:24:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sdimbert \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > > FWIW, this is how I do it. > > > > If I am not making a direct quote, or using a colloquialism, I put the period _outside_ of the quotation mark. For example: Some people call me “crazy”. > > FWIW, you’re doing it wrong. 😃 Are you sure about that sdimbert? I remember reading a post once from a member in England, and that poster said that in England the correct usage is to put the punctuation **outside** the quotation marks. Can anyone confirm/deny this? I found this website, [http://www.stjerome.co.uk/author.htm](http://www.stjerome.co.uk/author.htm) St. Jerome Publishing : Guidelines for Authors (please note the “.uk” in the URL) which says “[Quotations](http://www.stjerome.co.uk/author.htm#quotations)” «Place punctuation outside quotation marks, for example: Thus, Even-Zohar (1979:77) stresses that “we can observe in translation patterns which are inexplicable in terms of any of the repertoires involved”, that is …» ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/31 "2000-08-28T17:26:06Z")
Lissener, of course I your pun registered with me, hence my back-at-you pun. (In fact, there goes yet another in the first sentence of this post. Are you guys keeping up here?) Anyway, for those of you who don’t mind that “grammar clog” up their butts, I strongly suggest you pick up a copy of the book, Words into Type. It will cover just about all typesetting situations including exceptions and optional style conventions. Every author, editor, proofreader, designer and typesetter should own it. ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/32 "2000-08-28T17:31:49Z")
Arnold, in British English the commas and periods go outside the quotation marks. In American English, the standard is to always put them inside the marks. Colons and semicolons always go outside; question marks and exclaimation points sometimes go inside, sometimes outside. I think Johnny L.A. was referring to American English; therefore, he can do whatever he wants but his method is actually technically incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/33 "2000-08-28T18:27:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Some other interesting and possibly controversial developments include the abolition of punctuation in bullet point lists (unless complete sentences)… We always include internal and final punctuation within bulleted lists, either semi-colons (incomplete sentences) or periods (complete sentences). The second-to-last bullet ends with “; and” and the last bullet ends with a period. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/34 "2000-08-28T18:53:51Z")
A style book I once read, and I cannot recall the title, said that the period always belongs outside the quotation mark. No exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/35 "2000-08-28T18:58:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by missbunny \* > I think Johnny L.A. was referring to American English; therefore, he can do whatever he wants but his method is actually technically incorrect. This raises another interesting question: I live in the USA but I favour using the British spelling for certain words. Does this make my spelling incorrect? I personally also put periods and commas outside the quotation mark sometimes (see Johnny LA’s example.) Does that make my usage incorrect? I personally prefer to think of myself as choosing British grammar over american, even though I live in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/36 "2000-08-28T19:24:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > \*\*. . . I live in the USA but I favour using the British spelling for certain words. Does this make my spelling incorrect? . . . \*\* No; it just makes it an affectation. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/37 "2000-08-28T19:32:07Z")
Thanks to those who are sticking up for me! 🙂 I’d never thought of the way I write to be “American” or “British” English; but like Arnold, I find the British spelling to be aesthetically more pleasing than American spelling (“colour”, “flavour”, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![rackensack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@rackensack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rackensack)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/38 "2000-08-29T03:07:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by stuyguy \* > > \*\*Lissener wrote: > > > > “…wondered who else would have their mind in the gutter.” > > > > L, my friend, my mind is in the gutter so much, I’ve often been called a creep.\* > > > > I TOTALLY agree with your rage over the '99 thing. I’m hoping they improve WP programs to recognize that construction too. It shouldn’t be too hard to do. > > > > - Find the pun and win a prize. \*\* > > You _do_ mean pun **s** , don’t you? Assuming you saw mine . . . \*\* You guys should be ashamed of imposing on the rest of us this way. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/39 "2000-08-29T12:31:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\*Thanks to those who are sticking up for me! 🙂 > > I’d never thought of the way I write to be “American” or “British” English; but like Arnold, I find the British spelling to be aesthetically more pleasing than American spelling (“colour”, “flavour”, etc.). > \*\* What’s so esthetically more pleasing about adding unnecessary letters? You wouldn’t add unnecessary words, would you? I do find their pronunciation esthetically pleasing, and find myself pronouncing “schedule” with a soft “ch.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024/40 "2000-08-29T13:20:59Z")
> [@](#): > > What’s so esthetically more pleasing about adding unnecessary letters? Why is blue more pleasing than red? Why are pine trees prettier than a city? Why is the 1997 Porsche 911 nicer-looking than the new ones? Personal preference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-questions/31024.md?page=3)