# grammar: "strict of (plural noun)" sounds wrong, but is it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 10, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782 "2014-07-10T18:35:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/1 "2014-07-10T18:35:04Z")
for some reason “strict of procedures” sounds wrong while “strict of **a** procedure” sounds and feels just fine and natural. In both cases, it’s followed by a comparison (i.e. “as they did in …”). Is this just because I so rarely here “strict of” followed by a plural, or is the phrasing actually different with a plural noun? NOTE: I’m a big fan of the quote _“English is the result of Norman men-at-arms attempting to pick up Saxon barmaids and is no more legitimate than any of the other results”_ so I don’t about proper grammar unless something sounds wrong or is intolerably ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/2 "2014-07-10T18:39:43Z")
Could you provide an example sentence? “Strict of \_\_\_\_” is not a construction I’ve heard often, if ever. _Full disclosure:_ American English speaker. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/3 "2014-07-10T19:15:49Z")
> [@dstarfire](#): > > for some reason “strict of procedures” sounds wrong while “strict of **a** procedure” sounds and feels just fine and natural. Both sound wrong to me, and, indeed, I can’t really guess what either phrase might mean. “Strict” is an adjective. I do not think “_adjective_ of _noun_” is ever a correct construction in English. Do you mean “strictness”? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/4 "2014-07-10T19:31:52Z")
> [@dstarfire](#): > > for some reason “strict of procedures” sounds wrong while “strict of **a** procedure” sounds and feels just fine and natural. In both cases, it’s followed by a comparison (i.e. “as they did in …”). Neither of these make any sense to me. What exactly are you trying to say? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/5 "2014-07-10T19:37:19Z")
I think he means in constructions like: “This is not as strict of a procedure as the SOP specifies” and \*“This is not as strict of procedures as the SOP specifies” ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/6 "2014-07-10T19:39:52Z")
A possible phrase is “strictest of procedures”. The form “[superlative adjective] of [plural noun]” is normal English, e.g., “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.” ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/7 "2014-07-10T19:43:35Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I think he means in constructions like: > > “This is not as strict of a procedure as the SOP specifies” > > and > > \*“This is not as strict of procedures as the SOP specifies” Ah. In that case the first one is definitely correct, because the second one has a singular/plural mismatch (this = singular, procedures = plural.) You could say “These are not as strict of procedures as the SOP specifies.” It sounds a little awkward to me but I think it’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/8 "2014-07-10T19:44:47Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I think he means in constructions like: > > “This is not as strict of a procedure as the SOP specifies” > > and > > \*“This is not as strict of procedures as the SOP specifies” If I were writing these, I’d leave the of out of the first and shift the second to. “These procedures are not as strict as the SOP spedifiec.” Or I’d find a way to rephrase without “strict” at all. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/9 "2014-07-10T19:48:12Z")
“Of a procedure(s)” is a prepositional phrase, though and I don’t believe it has any bearing on whether the verb is singular or plural. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/10 "2014-07-10T19:48:34Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I think he means in constructions like: > > “This is not as strict of a procedure as the SOP specifies” > > and > > \*“This is not as strict of procedures as the SOP specifies” Sorry, I do not think either or those are correct. The first could be fixed (well, made acceptable, though not elegant) by removing the “of”; the second needs more work. Maybe “These are not such strict procedures as the SOP specifies,” but even that seems poor. “These procedures are not as strict as the SOP requires,” would be better. ETA: :mad: Ninjaed by **Yllaria**. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/11 "2014-07-10T19:50:41Z")
I don’t particularly care for them either but they’re the best I could do while still using the construction the OP is wondering about. The former is definitely grammatical, though inelegant, I’ll grant you. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/12 "2014-07-10T19:58:16Z")
As mentioned by someone above, I would also go with: “This is not as strict [del]of[/del] a procedure as the SOP specifies” ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/13 "2014-07-10T20:31:46Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > As mentioned by someone above, I would also go with: > “This is not as strict [del]of[/del] a procedure as the SOP specifies” I agree. It’s a classic construction to establish a comparative. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/14 "2014-07-10T21:16:50Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > A possible phrase is “strictest of procedures”. The form “[superlative adjective] of [plural noun]” is normal English, e.g., “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.” Without the superlative, it’s still fine: “We take the good of times with the bad.” ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/15 "2014-07-10T21:22:59Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Without the superlative, it’s still fine: “We take the good of times with the bad.” That doesn’t sound right to be, but “We take the good times with the bad” does work. ---
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/16 "2014-07-10T21:33:23Z")
Here’s the full sentence, from [this article](http://www.popsci.com/article/science/five-questions-about-smallpox-vials-found-maryland)in Popular Science: > [@](#): > > In the 1950s and 1960s, even labs handling dangerous biological materials didn’t have as strict of inventory procedures as they do today. . ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/17 "2014-07-10T21:56:33Z")
That seems like improper grammar to me, although I have heard people include the “of” in colloquial speech. “Didn’t have as strict procedures as they do today” would (I think) be okay, but still more awkward than “didn’t have procedures as strict as they do today.” ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/18 "2014-07-10T22:11:04Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > That seems like improper grammar to me, although I have heard people include the “of” in colloquial speech. > > “Didn’t have as strict procedures as they do today” would (I think) be okay, but still more awkward than “didn’t have procedures as strict as they do today.” I agree. If it’s not grammatically improper, it’s at least awkward and clunky. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/19 "2014-07-10T22:18:46Z")
In the 1950s and 1960s, even labs handling dangerous biological materials didn’t have inventory procedures as strict as they are today. Simples ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782/20 "2014-07-10T22:55:48Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Both sound wrong to me, and, indeed, I can’t really guess what either phrase might mean. “Strict” is an adjective. I do not think “_adjective_ of _noun_” is ever a correct construction in English. Do you mean “strictness”? I am tired of \_\_\_\_\_ many possible nouns like hamburger I am sick of \_\_\_\_\_\_ ditto [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grammar-strict-of-plural-noun-sounds-wrong-but-is-it/692782.md?page=2)