# Grand Jury to hear evidence against Trump, weigh potential charges **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 25, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916 "2021-05-25T21:27:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/181 "2021-07-04T10:19:33Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Nitpick: It’s up to the winning litigant (who now has the judgment and the writ) to send in a civil enforcement agency to seize assets. The court won’t. A civil enforcement agency is a private enterprise, but one who understands the court documents and what they mean. Think, “Repo Men,” and you’ve got the idea. For the sake of completeness, I’ll note that I worked administration for a law firm specializing in real estate a million years ago, and in our jurisdiction, our evictions were handed directly to the county sheriff for enforcement. So while a civil agency may need to be retained in Trump’s case, it’s not true everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/182 "2021-07-04T11:44:50Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > > decleaste > > whaaa Most likely a typo for ‘declare’? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/183 "2021-07-04T14:40:55Z")
This is kind of funny. Trump defends himself by saying, basically, that “nobody knows” what is taxable and what isn’t or if anybody ever has to pay tax on anything at all. > **[Trump appears to acknowledge tax schemes while questioning whether alleged...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-rally-sarasota/2021/07/03/6965b6b2-dc71-11eb-ae62-2d07d7df83bd_story.html)** > > The Manhattan District Attorney’s Office charged the Trump Organization and CFO Allen Weisselberg with orchestrating a 15-year scheme to avoid taxes by providing benefits hidden from the federal government. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/184 "2021-07-04T15:31:04Z")
Interesting defense… Tax laws are complicated, and nobody really knows what they’re all about, so really, there is no need to follow them at all. Basically, arguing that he can do what he wants, since he’s too stupid to understand anything. This has worked for him in the past, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/185 "2021-07-04T15:43:01Z")
“I think nobody knows more about taxes than I do, maybe in the history of the world. Nobody knows more about taxes.” - Donald J. Trump, May 2016 ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/186 "2021-07-04T15:48:42Z")
Let’s extend this out a little bit. If the Trump theory of fringe benefits is correct, they could offer me a compensation package that consisted of an apartment, a car, school tuition for my kids, a weekly sack of cash containing $1000 and $1 per year salary and I would only have to pay taxes on the $1 in salary. It’s ridiculous. Now, like with most things in life, no one is perfect and I suspect most companies abuse their fringe benefits occasionally, a little bit. When I was young and working as the salesperson for a very small business, my father had a serious health emergency while vacationing in California. When I told my employer about it, he instructed me to take the week off and to book a flight and hotel on the company’s travel account. I’m sure he reported it as a business expense, and I didn’t pay taxes on the value of that travel. This is like normal fringe benefit abuse, but what Trump was doing was paying his employees large portion of their salary with barter goods, which went unreported as income. And NYC has criminally prosecuted tax related crimes that were way smaller than this one. The owner of a small electrical supply company that I did a little business with was criminally prosecuted for buying the alcohol he gave as Christmas gifts in New Jersey, then driving it to NYC and distributing it to clients that lived there. He didn’t get jail time, just a hefty fine and he issued a public apology. They take this seriously for everyone, and if you’re going to do this stuff - make sure that everyone that suspects you likes you. Most investigations like this are triggered because someone blows the whistle on you, maybe an employee, maybe an investigative reporter….but once that information gets out into the public sphere, only the most corrupt law enforcement can ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2021, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/187 "2021-07-05T01:50:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@mikecurtis](#): > > > > > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > > > > > decleaste > > > > > whaaa > > Most likely a typo for ‘declare’? It’s the past tense form of covfefe. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/188 "2021-07-06T10:12:56Z")
They kept two sets of books. The prosecutors have both sets of books. This is not “we let you charge a flight on the company’s account and neglected to report it”. This is deliberate fraud.This is something I expect to see in the movies. I repeat, there is a second, “secret” set of books that includes all of the non monetary compensation as part of the compensation packages but they submitted a completely different set of books. There is no issue of intent. (It just makes me remember back to when I was in college and one of my father’s benefits was partial tuition for his children’s college. I remember hearing my parents late at night discussing how they were going to come up with the money for taxes-they had the money, it was just a question of liquidity. Anyway, that is what honest people do.) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/189 "2021-07-06T12:56:23Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > They kept two sets of books. The prosecutors have both sets of books. This is not “we let you charge a flight on the company’s account and neglected to report it”. This is deliberate fraud.This is something I expect to see in the movies. I repeat, there is a second, “secret” set of books that includes all of the non monetary compensation as part of the compensation packages but they submitted a completely different set of books. There is no issue of intent. I wonder if one set of books was labeled “Show to the IRS” while the other was labeled “Never Show to the IRS” [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ziSkbDNp9RA/hqdefault.jpg "The Producers. Never show to the IRS") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziSkbDNp9RA) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/190 "2021-07-06T13:06:02Z")
Trump never puts his money in the show. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/191 "2021-07-06T14:27:26Z")
Having two sets of books reminds me so much of the warden in Shawshank Redemption. Why on earth would they preserve incriminating evidence against themselves? Why do people who get paid very well feel the need to try to scam their way into even more? I certainly hope there are plenty of shoes remaining to drop. Ivanka needs to account for the inauguration money. The attempts to overturn the election in Georgia should result in an indictment, let’s hope that it does. Then there’s obstruction of justice. And we still haven’t heard how the NY DA is doing with their investigation- are they saving the most significant charges for the state DA? ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/192 "2021-07-06T14:35:15Z")
“Is you taking notes on a criminal fucking conspiracy?” ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/193 "2021-07-06T16:58:31Z")
I think this fits under the Leona Helmsley quote of > "We don’t pay **taxes**. Only the little people pay **taxes**. and if it’s understood as a given that you don’t pay them why on earth would you need to bother understanding them. ETA: I just read the [wikipedia article on Helmsley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leona_Helmsley). Other than the fact that she seemed to be a bonified successful business woman, not having had a vast fortune handed to her by her dad, she otherwise sounds like Trump in drag, even to the point of stiffing contractors, ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/194 "2021-07-06T17:15:22Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > bonified Hee. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![McDeath\_the\_Mad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a3d4f5/32.png) [@McDeath\_the\_Mad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDeath_the_Mad)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/195 "2021-07-06T18:55:58Z")
Classic Wire! ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/196 "2021-07-11T21:54:23Z")
It is the [familiar and weak theory](https://ssrn.com/abstract=2395514) that the tax code is so complex as to be unconstitutionally vague. The doctrine of unconstitutional vagueness is based on the Fifth Amendment’s due process clause (at least for federal laws). Proponents of that theory perhaps do not realize that the federal taxing power is not subject to the due process clause. _Brushaber v. Union Pacific Railroad Co._, 240 U.S. 1, 24-25 (1916). ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/197 "2021-07-11T23:40:42Z")
I assume proponents of that theory also think that they can get superpowers by eating paste. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/198 "2021-07-12T00:36:27Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Here’s a [link to the indictment](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/07/01/nyregion/trump-organization-indictment.html). I encourage you to read it to appreciate the full scope of what is asserted. It’s from the NY Times, but it’s a copy of the actual indictment, and they do permit a limited number of free views per month. It’s only 24 pages. Oh come on, you want UltraVries to read the actual 24-page indictment to figure out what’s going on here? That’s a shit-ton of mind-numbing legalese. It’s not like the poor guy’s a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/199 "2021-07-12T00:41:22Z")
All he needs to read is scrolled along the bottom of his FOX news channel ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/200 "2021-07-12T03:42:31Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > It is the [familiar and weak theory](https://ssrn.com/abstract=2395514) that the tax code is so complex as to be unconstitutionally vague. The doctrine of unconstitutional vagueness is based on the Fifth Amendment’s due process clause (at least for federal laws). Proponents of that theory perhaps do not realize that the federal taxing power is not subject to the due process clause. _Brushaber v. Union Pacific Railroad Co._, 240 U.S. 1, 24-25 (1916). > > ~Max Funny, I am not a lawyer and really don’t have a great understanding of the tax code. Yet, I actually just read all 24 pages of the indictment and it was plain as day what it was saying. That includes what it was saying about the law and about the actions taken by the accused. Nothing complicated or vague about it to my mind. In short Weisselberg and the Trump Org appear to be well and truly fucked. And I expect there will be more to come. The details are very specific. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916.md?page=11)