# Grand Jury to hear evidence against Trump, weigh potential charges **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 25, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916 "2021-05-25T21:27:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/101 "2021-07-01T15:46:34Z")
Generally, a marshal. Exactly which marshal service depends on the court and the jurisdiction. In New York City, they are outside companies that are licensed and deputized by the court and they have the legal authority to enforce court orders such as eviction and repossession - if they need extra muscle they can call in the cops. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/102 "2021-07-01T15:50:04Z")
I can picture people lining up around the block for the privilege. Hehe. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/103 "2021-07-01T15:50:30Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > About these accelerator clauses, do they kick simply on indictment? Isn’t that something like presumption of guilt. Would depend on the exact terms of the clause. I’m just going by the articles like the one in Forbes that mentions that the clauses exist and could be triggered if Trump Org is indicted. As for presumption of guilt, the lender can make it a term of the security arrangement that the debtor will comply with all applicable laws in relation to the secured property and will not by its conduct jeopardise its legal interest in the security property. The deal could then go on to state that the following things will constitute breach of that clause, such as attempts by the debtor to sell the asset, the debtor being indicted for activity in the management of the asset, etc. Banks don’t care whether the debtor is innocent or guilty. They care about anything that jeopardises their security interest. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/104 "2021-07-01T15:54:16Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Another point. You have the court order and all and walk in to the bank asking for the money, but before they give it out, Trump sues the bank, giving some BS reason why the bank shouldn’t comply. The suit is frivolous, but it delays things and then there will be another suit. This can go on nearly forever, especially given how clogged the courts are. Filing a lawsuit like that doesn’t normally stay a court order. Failure to comply with the court order would be contempt. Banks get in trouble with regulators if they get found in contempt of court orders. If something like that happened, the bank would file an emergency application to the judge who issued the original order for clarification. I doubt that the second suit would survive for long. Courts are very sensitive to “collateral attacks” on their orders, where an unsuccessful litigant is seeking to avoid the order. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/105 "2021-07-01T16:07:22Z")
Remember this sweet case where Bank of America erroneously tried to foreclose on a couple that fully owned their home. The court ordered BOA to pay restitution, not even that much. BOA persistently ignored the court order. The judge finally gave the couple a court order that allowed them (with the assistance of sheriff deputies in this jurisdiction) to rent a moving truck, go to the local BOA branch, and take stuff like computers and furnishings. BOA paid up immediately. > **['Sweet Justice': A Florida Couple 'Forecloses' On Bank Of America](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/06/06/137002727/sweet-justice-a-florida-couple-forecloses-on-bank-of-america)** > > The story started familiarly: Two Florida homeowners were taken to court by Bank of America. But it ended very differently: the homeowners backed by deputies about to load a moving van with the bank's assets. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/106 "2021-07-01T16:10:01Z")
Oh, baby… that _is_ sweet… 🍬 ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/107 "2021-07-01T16:16:53Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The deal could then go on to state that the following things will constitute breach of that clause, such as attempts by the debtor to sell the asset, the debtor being indicted for activity in the management of the asset, etc. A fraudulent preference, or a fraudulent conveyance, as such things are known. That’s a big no-no as far as the secured asset goes. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/108 "2021-07-01T16:22:44Z")
No surprise but I’m entirely with ThelmaLou here. Trump has a lifetime of skirting the law and (largely) getting away with it. Why is this time obviously different? Dopers are interpreting and predicting events in the most anti-Trump way, as we are want to do, but a lot of things have to go right before Trump pays any real penalty. The first thing that has to happen is get a conviction against the Trump org, a very complicated affair and by no means a foregone conclusion. If people are just imagining about what might be, like dreaming about winning the lottery, then I’ll be there with you but I’m not expecting anything earth shattering to come from this. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/109 "2021-07-01T16:29:02Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > The first thing that has to happen is get a conviction against the Trump org, a very complicated affair and by no means a foregone conclusion. Not necessarily. The Forbes article, and others that I’ve seen, have suggested that an indictment against the Trump Org may be sufficient to trigger the acceleration clauses. I dunno if that’s the case; all I know is what I read in the papers. Would depend on the exact terms of the security arrangment. But if it is sufficient to trigger accelerator clauses, and I assume a business mag like Forbes has some idea what it’s talking about, then a conviction may not be necessary. It’s a “stay-tuned” situation. ETA: Increasingly, I find that I want to use the abbreviation, the “Trump Borg”. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/110 "2021-07-01T16:34:36Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Trump has a lifetime of skirting the law and (largely) getting away with it. Why is this time obviously different? I tend to agree that this indictment will not likely end with some kind of substantial punishment for Trump himself. I suspect the most likely outcome is a settlement in which the Trump org admits no wrong-doing, has to pay a large but not impossible fine, plus some other provisos about future oversight. Then Trump will send out an email and rake in $100M from his rubes/supporters, most of which will go directly into his pocket. That said, because this is the first real _criminal_ indictment against the Trump org, it’s not impossible that the prospect of jail time might induce Weisselberg to flip, and then anything could happen. That’s what really different this time. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/111 "2021-07-01T16:37:14Z")
No matter what else, I would think that the indictments will expose the true organization underneath the Trump Collective. Every time they try to dodge, they will have to detail exactly what the relationship between one part of the Collective and another. The AG will be on every bit of that like a terrier. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/112 "2021-07-01T16:41:15Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > While he has skated on most things in his miserable life, he is demonstrably _not_ untouchable, and he can be forced to pay things off. We shall have to wait and see what happens in this case. Wonder if DJT is a bit more concerned about Deutsche Bank loans that appears to have laundered money from Putin. Putin doesn’t collect by foreclosing on your assets, he forecloses on your ass. The direct approach as it where. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/113 "2021-07-01T16:42:50Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > I suspect the most likely outcome is a settlement in which the Trump org admits no wrong-doing, has to pay a large but not impossible fine, plus some other provisos about future oversight. Then Trump will send out an email and rake in $100M from his rubes/supporters, most of which will go directly into his pocket. Sadly, this. > [@silenus](#): > > No matter what else, I would think that the indictments will expose the true organization underneath the Trump Collective. Every time they try to dodge, they will have to detail exactly what the relationship between one part of the Collective and another. No one will care except those of us who already don’t like him and think he’s a crook. His MAGAts and other Republicans will consider him a martyr and victim. > [@silenus](#): > > The AG will be on every bit of that like a terrier. To what end? Yeah, I realize I’m like a bitter little terrier with a bone myself on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/114 "2021-07-01T16:44:18Z")
I’m in a hurry to get out the door just now so can’t find a cite, but I recall not that long ago an article where Deutsche Bank made it clear that they wished to foreclose on Trump’s loans as soon as possible. They felt his reputation on the global stage had made him a liability. I had the impression they hoped to call the loans if he lost his bid for the presidency. If they haven’t already, I expect they soon will. (stifled chortle) ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/115 "2021-07-01T16:46:10Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Not necessarily. The Forbes article, and others that I’ve seen, have suggested that an indictment against the Trump Org may be sufficient to trigger the acceleration clauses. I dunno if that’s the case; all I know is what I read in the papers. Would depend on the exact terms of the security arrangment. And I may win the Mass vax lottery. I know we’re all just speculating and working out possibilities but I think we’re setting ourselves up for a Mueller-sized let-down. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/116 "2021-07-01T16:49:01Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I’m in a hurry to get out the door just now so can’t find a cite, but I recall not that long ago an article where Deutsche Bank made it clear that they wished to foreclose on Trump’s loans as soon as possible. Are they overdue? I though DB was just looking to either have them paid off or sold off to distance themselves from Trump (and all the scrutiny he brings) ASAP. I didn’t think he was delinquent in paying them, although I doubt DB will be inclined to extend any deadlines. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/117 "2021-07-01T16:49:42Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > I suspect the most likely outcome is a settlement in which the Trump org admits no wrong-doing, has to pay a large but not impossible fine, plus some other provisos about future oversight. I don’t think this is a likely outcome, mostly because I believe that Vance is going after Trump. My own pulled-out-of-my-ass guess is that this case is leverage to get people like Weisselberg to testify about other things. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/118 "2021-07-01T19:13:55Z")
[Trump Organization charged with 15-year ‘scheme to defraud’ government; chief financial officer charged with grand larceny, tax fraud](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-business-weisselberg-indictments/2021/07/01/e2b774a0-da15-11eb-bb9e-70fda8c37057_story.html): > [@](#): > > Prosecutors charged the Trump Organization with a 15-year “scheme to defraud” the government and charged its chief financial officer with grand larceny and tax fraud in a Manhattan courtroom Thursday afternoon. > … > In all, 15 criminal charges filed against Weisselberg, according to a copy of the indictment obtained by The Washington Post. They included counts of conspiracy, criminal tax fraud and falsifying business records. In many of the counts, the two Trump entities were charged along with Weisselberg. > > Carey Dunne, a prosecutor with the District Attorney’s Office, said in the hearing that the charges related to an “off-the-books tax fraud scheme” that lasted for 15 years. He said that the scheme allowed Trump Organization executives to get “secret pay raises” while not paying proper taxes. > > “To put it bluntly, this was a sweeping and audacious illegal payment scheme,” Dunne said. He rejected an allegation from the Trump Organization that the charges were part of a politiclly-motivated effort to hurt Trump: “It’s not about politics,” Dunne said. This looks a little more extensive than I was expecting based on yesterday, but I’m not entirely sure. Is it all still just about things like giving no-cost apartments to executives? Or is there more? ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/119 "2021-07-01T19:29:13Z")
A couple of non-paywalled sources > **[Trump Organization and senior executive charged with tax crimes](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/01/trump-organization-allen-weisselberg-charged-tax-related-crimes)** > > 15-count indictment against Allen Weisselberg includes charges of grand larceny, criminal tax fraud and falsifying business records and > **[Trump Organization: Top executive charged with tax crimes](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57669976)** > > The ex-president's Trump Organization has been charged with multiple counts of tax fraud in New York. (Actually I don’t think they add _that_ much to @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness 's post) j ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/120 "2021-07-01T19:46:14Z")
Can a gag order be far behind? And how quickly would Individual One violate it? > **[Why a gag order against Trump would be a good idea | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/01/opinions/gag-order-against-trump-would-be-a-good-idea-gottlieb/index.html)** > > Robert C. Gottlieb, a New York attorney and former prosecutor in the Manhattan DA's office, writes that it's a safe bet that once the indictments in the Trump investigation are filed and made public, the former president will go on his usual... (Thanks to @silenus for the link in the [Citizen Trump thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizen-trump-et-al/930458/329).) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916.md?page=7)