# Grand Jury to hear evidence against Trump, weigh potential charges **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 25, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916 "2021-05-25T21:27:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/121 "2021-07-01T19:49:01Z")
[Here’s the NY Times article for those who subscribe](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/01/nyregion/allen-weisselberg-charged-trump-organization.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage). Some interesting quotes: > And while the indictment is narrowly focused on the scheme to evade income and payroll taxes based on the provision of the benefits, the charges could lay the groundwork for the next steps in the investigation, which will focus on Mr. Trump. > > The broader investigation into Mr. Trump and his company’s business practices is continuing. > Of all the investigations that have loomed over Mr. Trump and his inner circle in the past few years — two impeachments, one special counsel inquiry into ties with Russia and criminal charges against a half dozen former aides — only Mr. Vance’s case has reached into the top rungs of the Trump Organization and taken aim at the company itself. Sounds like this is step one. Keep going, Mr. Vance! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/122 "2021-07-01T19:51:42Z")
That’s pretty interesting. It’d be a huge escalation, because he’d almost certainly violate it, which would pretty much force the judge to issue a contempt of court decision. Jailing Trump for speaking in the way he’s always spoken would, I believe, be a potentially deadly decision for the judge, and I mean that literally. Which is similar to what I wonder about Weisselberg. Although turning state’s evidence would be (again, literally) choosing country over corporation, Trump’s followers wouldn’t see it that way. Is Weisselberg afraid for his life? If he doesn’t turn state’s evidence, he faces prison time. What does he face if he does cooperate? ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/123 "2021-07-01T20:56:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This looks a little more extensive than I was expecting based on yesterday, but I’m not entirely sure. Is it all still just about things like giving no-cost apartments to executives? Or is there more? It seems like a less “grey” case of tax evasion to me. From the indictment ([https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/20982368/new-york-v-trump-org-allen-weisselberg.pdf](https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/20982368/new-york-v-trump-org-allen-weisselberg.pdf)): > Specifically, Weisselberg caused the Trump Corporation to issue corporate checks made payable to a Trump Organization employee who cashed the checks and received cash. The cash was given to Weisselberg for his personal use. **The Trump Corporation booked this cash as “Holiday Entertainment,” but maintained internal spreadsheets showing the cash to be part of Weisselberg’s employee compensation**. The cash distributed in this manner was not included on Weisselberg’s W-2 forms or otherwise reported to federal, state, or local tax authorities, and no income tax was withheld by the corporate defendants in connection with the cash payments. Bolding mine. Was the spreadsheet labeled “Evidence of Crimes… Hide Carefully!!”? This seems remarkably idiotic. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/124 "2021-07-01T20:59:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Is Weisselberg afraid for his life? If he doesn’t turn state’s evidence, he faces prison time. What does he face if he does cooperate? That’s what the Witness Protection Program is designed to address. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/125 "2021-07-01T21:06:36Z")
Make him Latino and get him a job on the Mar-A-Lago staff. It would be the last thing the former His Orangeness would expect. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/126 "2021-07-01T21:22:50Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > Was the spreadsheet labeled “Evidence of Crimes… Hide Carefully!!”? This seems remarkably idiotic. And you find this surprising? 😃 > [@Procrustus](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > Is Weisselberg afraid for his life? If he doesn’t turn state’s evidence, he faces prison time. What does he face if he does cooperate? > > That’s what the Witness Protection Program is designed to address. Exactly. Being targeted by Trump’s lawless gang of acolytes is much like being targeted by the Mafia, except quite a bit less dangerous because Trumpists are so spectacularly incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/127 "2021-07-01T21:31:50Z")
Seriously, I just read the indictment, and one of my takeaways is that Weisselberg is doomed because Trump was cheap. Here’s how it worked, in a nutshell. Weisselberg had negotiated compensation of $940,000 per year in salary and bonuses. The Trump Organization leased an apartment for the sole use of Weisselberg and his wife, as specified in the lease agreement. The Trump Organization paid the rent and utility bills. Similar with the bills for the auto leases and private schools. At bonus time, they had other Trump Organization companies pay large sums to their employees, reporting it as 1099 compensation to independent contractors. But here’s the damning part, why Weisselberg is screwed because Trump is cheap. AW did not receive his apartment, cars, etc. on top of his negotiated salary, like a normal fringe benefit. Every dime the Trump Organization paid on the behalf of AW was tracked internally, and his regular salary, the amount he received in paychecks that were reported to the IRS, was reduced by the amount he was paid “off the books”. IANAL, but I think is what makes it criminal tax evasion, not civil “fringe benefit fraud”. I think it’s pretty bad, and it occurs to me that if Mrs.W signed a joint tax return…….that might be what they’re going to leverage for his cooperation. Unless he hates her. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/128 "2021-07-01T21:47:27Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > But here’s the damning part, why Weisselberg is screwed because Trump is cheap. AW did not receive his apartment, cars, etc. on top of his negotiated salary, like a normal fringe benefit. Every dime the Trump Organization paid on the behalf of AW was tracked internally, and his regular salary, the amount he received in paychecks that were reported to the IRS, was reduced by the amount he was paid “off the books”. Is that Trump being cheap though? It seems like Weisselberg would be the main beneficiary of effectively being paid “under the table” for a portion of his compensation. Does the organization benefit from paying employees like that? I think they might if there is a employer payroll tax, etc. but I’m not sure if there is something else I’m missing. I don’t understand the mentality of these people. Ethics aside, you have a $940k income. You’re doing great. Why take such a stupid risk with your non-incarcerated state with such a harebrained scheme that probably has a completely negligible impact on your quality of life? It’s so dumb! ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/129 "2021-07-01T21:56:32Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > Ethics aside, you have a $940k income. You’re doing great. Why take such a stupid risk with your non-incarcerated state with such a harebrained scheme that probably has a completely negligible impact on your quality of life?- Spoken like a non-millionaire. No matter how much you have, it’s never enough. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/130 "2021-07-01T22:09:47Z")
Vance is doing the morally correct thing in confronting the Trumps’ criminality. But I fear that in doing so they are going to bring him back from the political precipice. Publicity is Trump’s oxygen. Vance is going to be giving him one hell of a lot of oxygen, and I’m not sure that Mickey Mouse financial crimes are worth it. I’m wondering if Vance isn’t hoping to squeeze Weisselberg (sp?) into flipping and giving out just enough to catch the attention of the US DOJ, or the IRS. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/131 "2021-07-01T22:13:46Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Publicity is Trump’s oxygen. Vance is going to be giving him one hell of a lot of oxygen, and I’m not sure that Mickey Mouse financial crimes are worth it. Give him enough oxygen and you’ll get Apollo 1. Hopefully this time the right people get burned. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/132 "2021-07-02T01:54:40Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > His MAGAts and other Republicans will consider him a martyr and victim. > **[Trump seeks to use indictments as a political rallying cry as he tries to...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-indictments-political-future/2021/07/01/46553dc0-da9e-11eb-ae62-2d07d7df83bd_story.html)** > > Trump weathered past political storms by fighting back with the power and the staff of the White House behind him as well as a Twitter account that could immediately set the news agenda for the day. Those resources are now gone. > … > “The political Witch Hunt by the Radical Left Democrats, with New York now taking over the assignment, continues. It is dividing our Country like never before!” [Trump] said in a statement minutes after the indictments were unsealed. “Do people see the Radical Left prosecutors, and what they are trying to do to 75M+++ Voters and Patriots, for what it is?" > … > > David Schoen, a former Trump lawyer who represented him during his second impeachment trial, said he expected Trump to maintain a similar posture toward the probe as he did after the riot at the Capitol, where he argued the actual victim was him. Trump has often sought to defend his conduct by telling supporters that prosecutors are unfair, or that the charges are manufactured, or that prosecutors are really coming for them. > > “He knows among his supporters, there is a strong feeling that he is under siege because of who he is. There is a strong idea of, ‘They are trying to get Trump no matter what,’ ” he said. “There is a strong feeling among Trump followers, or a significant part of the country, that when Donald Trump is attacked, they and their beliefs are being attacked also. They believe any criminal indictment is a political maneuver to avoid having him run for president.” > … ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/133 "2021-07-02T07:40:08Z")
The Mafia used to complain about being persecuted by the FBI too. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/134 "2021-07-02T16:05:40Z")
Can Donald advertise for contributions to a legal defense fund? And if he did so and managed to collect millions more than he spends on legal services, would he get to pocket the money? If not, where would it go? The dude is like Mr. Haney on Green Acres, if there’s a way to fleece the rubes he’s going to find it. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/135 "2021-07-02T16:08:48Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > “Do people see the Radical Left prosecutors, and what they are trying to do to 75M+++ Voters and Patriots, for what it is?" That’s strange. I had no idea 75 million people were being charged. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/136 "2021-07-02T16:48:30Z")
If Donnie said it, it has to be true, right? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/137 "2021-07-02T16:50:05Z")
It’s the old “they’re not attacking me, they’re attacking YOU” argument. But no, “they” are just attacking him. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/138 "2021-07-02T17:02:43Z")
> **[Trump Is Preparing for the Worst](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/07/trump-organization-allen-weisselberg-indictment-new-york/619340/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A%2BTheAtlantic%2B%28The%2BAtlantic%2B-%2BMaster%2BFeed%29)** > > Watch for early indications that the legal process may end badly for the former president. > … > An early indication that things may end badly for Trump is the [statement released today](https://twitter.com/Santucci/status/1410560504997855233?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1410560504997855233%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheweek.com%2Fdonald-trump%2F1002186%2Ftrump-org-blasts-manhattan-da-for-scorched-earth-prosecution) from the Trump Organization. “Allen Weisselberg is a loving and devoted husband, father and grandfather who has worked for the Trump Organization for 48 years. He is now being used by the Manhattan District Attorney as a pawn in a scorched earth attempt to harm the former President. The District Attorney is bringing a case involving employee benefits that neither the IRS nor any other District Attorney would ever think of bringing. This is not justice; this is politics.” > > Here is what is missing from that statement: “I’m 100 percent confident that every investigation will always end up in the same conclusion, which is that I follow all rules, procedures, and, most importantly, the law.” That’s the language used by former Trump Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke [when he was facing ethics charges in 2018](https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/nov/12/zinke-100-percent-confident-hell-be-cleared-in-pro/). Likewise, when Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe was accused of violating campaign-finance laws in 2016, he too was “[very confident](https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/virginia-gov-mcauliffe-no-wrongdoing-campaign-donations-msna854166)” that “there was no wrongdoing.” **Plug the phrases _very confident_ and _no wrongdoing_ into a search engine and you will pull up statement after statement by politicians and business leaders under fire.** For some, their matter worked out favorably; for others, not so much. Either way, everybody expects you to say that you’re confident you didn’t do anything wrong. It’s the thing an innocent person would want to say. **So it’s kind of a tell when it goes unsaid.** > … My bold. This gave me a warm, fuzzy feeling in my insides. I wanted to share. 🥰 ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/139 "2021-07-02T17:14:42Z")
Yesterday I felt like the indictment was rather underwhelming, kinda like an end run to prosecute Al Capone on income tax charges, instead of crimes like extortion, bribery, theft, and racketeering that you’d hope to see a gangster facing. But then I reminded myself of what so many talking heads are saying…_this is just the beginning of Cheetoh’s legal woes_. The mere indictment of Trump Org alone could result in Deutschebank calling in their loans. That by itself would probably end the company’s solvency. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916/140 "2021-07-02T17:30:41Z")
I haven’t had a chance to read it yet, but various news sources make clear this was a speaking indictment that showed a little petticoat – meaning prosecutors detailed some of the very specific evidence they have against the Trump Organization by way of anticipated testimony and documents. Speaking indictments are rarely issued by the Manhattan DA’s Office. The indictment intimates there are others who appear willing to cooperate and assume the narrative role for which Weisselberg is currently being sought. In other words, Cy Vance’s office is saying to Weisselberg, “Look, we’d rather have you as our narrator because you are closest to the most culpable person in this criminal enterprise. But if you decide to go down with the ship, we have others who can do it instead. And if that’s your choice, it’s going to go worse for you.” Andrew Weissman (of Mueller probe fame) characterized it as a “shot across the bow” to Weisselberg – and just the beginning of this criminal action. Remember too that the grand jury is tasked with sitting for 3 days per week through December to continue to weigh presented evidence. This period can also be extended if the prosecutors so choose. According to those who practice in this jurisdiction, it’s a very ambitious schedule. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-jury-to-hear-evidence-against-trump-weigh-potential-charges/942916.md?page=8)