# Grand-Master of Science Fiction: The Final Conflict **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 30, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452 "2010-11-30T19:56:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/21 "2010-12-01T16:07:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [As you wish.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13199885#post13199885) This is a good idea. I did not vote for the best SF writer I had encountered, in fact all the GrandMaster candidates were lesser writers compared to some who had come since, in many or most respects, they just, well … made SF what it is, so how could they not be GrandMasters? But it is nice to have the chance to vote for some writers with some great chops. And thanks for an entertaining series of threads! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/22 "2010-12-01T17:01:31Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Problem is, the best writers in the field in the last 30 years are no match for any of these five choices, except maybe Zelazny. (Though “A Rose for Ecclesiastes”, all by its lonesome, may deny that.) That’s why science fiction’s popularity as a genre has been sinking fast. Bujold, Card, and Varley, for example, are good writers who tell good stories, but are writers that nobody can compare to the five here. > > Why don’t you start a poll for the best since 1980? I profoundly disagree with this: I think Asimov and Heinlein are subpar prose-writers by almost any measure, and their characters–all of them, but most especially Asimov’s women–are absurdly poorly written. They succeed as writers of ideas, but not IMO as novelists, and I can easily name half a dozen more recent SF authors who could write circles around them. Even modern hacks like Alan Dean Foster can write better prose than either of those guys. Really I think they’re awful. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/23 "2010-12-01T17:09:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I profoundly disagree with this: I think Asimov and Heinlein are subpar prose-writers by almost any measure, and their characters–all of them, but most especially Asimov’s women–are absurdly poorly written. They succeed as writers of ideas, but not IMO as novelists, and I can easily name half a dozen more recent SF authors who could write circles around them. Even modern hacks like Alan Dean Foster can write better prose than either of those guys. > > Really I think they’re awful. Yeah, I didn’t want to attack anybody’s favorites, but really I agree with this. I suspect people read some of this stuff when they were young and less discerning, and are voting based on happy memories. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/24 "2010-12-01T19:44:19Z")
> [@](#): > > I profoundly disagree with this: I think Asimov and Heinlein are subpar prose-writers by almost any measure, and their characters–all of them, but most especially Asimov’s women–are absurdly poorly written. On the contrary, I find Dr. Susan Calvin very well-written. She’s not a _typical_ woman, maybe, but few memorable characters are ever typical. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/25 "2010-12-01T20:00:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On the contrary, I find Dr. Susan Calvin very well-written. She’s not a _typical_ woman, maybe, but few memorable characters are ever typical. I sort of agree, but Calvin is pretty one-dimensional. As are most Asimov characters. But very few authors in any genre are good at representing the opposite sex, so it’s faint criticism. Heinlein’s women are interesting, but they often resemble men posing as women on the internets. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/26 "2010-12-01T20:31:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I profoundly disagree with this: I think Asimov and Heinlein are subpar prose-writers by almost any measure, and their characters–all of them, but most especially Asimov’s women–are absurdly poorly written. They succeed as writers of ideas, but not IMO as novelists, and I can easily name half a dozen more recent SF authors who could write circles around them. Even modern hacks like Alan Dean Foster can write better prose than either of those guys. > > Really I think they’re awful. Allow a great majority of us to disagree with **you**. Deeply and profoundly. I find most of the choices you listed in the other thread to be also-rans at best. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/27 "2010-12-01T20:35:30Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Allow a great majority of us to disagree with **you**. Deeply and profoundly. I find most of the choices you listed in the other thread to be also-rans at best. There is nothing dated or stilted about _Caves Of Steel_ or _The Naked Sun_-they are beautiful and timeless. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/28 "2010-12-01T20:40:50Z")
The decision was deucedly\* difficult, but I went with Asimov over Heinlein just because of his breadth and ability to push the limits of the genre. - Why doesn’t the Firefox spellchecker recognize “deucedly”? It’s a deucedly good word. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/29 "2010-12-01T20:53:44Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > And thanks for an entertaining series of threads! I’ll second…or third, fourth, whatever, think someone else mentioned it…this notion. Well done, **Czarcasm.** ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/30 "2010-12-01T20:58:41Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:28, topic:562452”] - Why doesn’t the Firefox spellchecker recognize “deucedly”? It’s a deucedly good word. [/QUOTE] I thought it was douchedly, like in Blinded by the Light 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/31 "2010-12-01T21:06:31Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’ll second…or third, fourth, whatever, think someone else mentioned it…this notion. Well done, **Czarcasm.** Well, I might have had an ulterior motive. “I care not where one has been, for that can be assigned to mere circumstance. The true measure of a man is where he is willing to go, both with his life and with his mind.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/32 "2010-12-01T21:15:43Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’ll second…or third, fourth, whatever, think someone else mentioned it…this notion. Well done, **Czarcasm.** +1, for all my gripes about y’all’s awful taste in science fiction :). (I certainly acknowledge that at least in this demographic my tastes are a minority. I’ll still cling to them like an alligator grabbing hold of a poodle.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/33 "2010-12-01T21:19:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There is nothing dated or stilted about _Caves Of Steel_ or _The Naked Sun_-they are beautiful and timeless. I confess that, although I devoured his books as a teenager, as an adult I’ve only read two. **Foundation** is appallingly poorly written (fun game–spot the women! this is the one that convinced me he couldn’t write a female character to save his life), and **The Stars Like Dust** has a ridiculously hokey McGuffin whose nature I guessed in the first chapter and was all, “dude, please don’t let that be the McGuffin” and whose reveal in the book’s final sentence was like Asimov was the most patriotic stoner-philosopher ever. Duuuuuuude! It sucked. Maybe I should try his robot novels again; those are the ones I remember most fondly from my adolescence. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/34 "2010-12-01T21:19:42Z")
Arguing about tastes in fiction is like arguing about tastes in sexual partners. Just be glad that there’s something for everybody out there if you look for it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/35 "2010-12-01T23:41:24Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Allow a great majority of us to disagree with **you**. Deeply and profoundly. I find most of the choices you listed in the other thread to be also-rans at best. I concur with this. As stated though by others. Thankfully we have a wonderful selection of authors to choose from. Even some of the later writers like David Brin had some wonderful books. Then he seems to have bogged down. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/36 "2010-12-02T00:11:49Z")
Oh, I don’t think so. Have you read _Kiln People_? I enjoyed that one a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/37 "2010-12-02T00:12:08Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Arguing about tastes in fiction is like arguing about tastes in sexual partners. Just be glad that there’s something for everybody out there if you look for it. 😃 Very true. There are some excellent storytellers that are poor writers. There are also a lot of excellent writers that are poor storytellers. Storytelling is an art in and of itself, and everyone has their own balance in expectations between the mechanics of the writing and the storytelling. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/38 "2010-12-02T01:01:14Z")
You also want different things at different times. Sometimes the seduction is the thing, the joy of the game. That’s when you haul down the Ellison. Other times, you’re just looking to get laid. That’s where Cussler shines. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/39 "2010-12-02T01:13:28Z")
My vote is made under protest. Where’s Walter Jon Williams? – Just because I’ve never run into anyone else who’s ever heard of him, that doesn’t mean he’s not a grandmaster! Ok. It kind of does. But it shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452/40 "2010-12-02T01:30:02Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > You also want different things at different times. Sometimes the seduction is the thing, the joy of the game. That’s when you haul down the Ellison. Other times, you’re just looking to get laid. That’s where Cussler shines. 😃 I don’t think I’ve ever thought of Harlan McBoobengrabber Ellison as a seducer before, but de gustibus and all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/grand-master-of-science-fiction-the-final-conflict/562452.md?page=3)