# Granting asylum to people fleeing from Germany? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297 "2010-02-01T22:24:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/41 "2010-02-03T16:43:14Z")
> [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;12071144’]I’m German, and I’m absolutely fine with this law. It’s not like there is indoctrination going on in our public schools. > There is religious education, but that is very mellow, like almost all religion in Germany, and you can opt out of it. > > But if there are parents who don’t want their children to hear about Evolution or whatever, they are simply wrong. I’ve heard about what’s going on in these circles in the US, and that frightens me much more than a state that requires you to interact with society for 30 hours a week. > I know that it’s a freedom of speech issue for you, but much like the law against holocaust denial, we think that regulation of extremism is worth it to restrict freedom of speech a little. You could say that it’s a lesson we learned. > > If you look at the effects on society, I definitely prefer the German way. There are many reasons why parents may want to homeschool. Not all homeschoolers are religious conservatives. My sister homeschools her daughter. She’s an atheist and also has a Ph.D. in molecular biology. She homeschools because she thinks the local schools are too conservative and too bureaucratic. ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/42 "2010-02-03T17:21:18Z")
**suranyi** , I’m talking about the situation in Germany. I know that there are diverse homeschoolers in the US. And I have never heard from parents who want to homeschool outside of the recent articles about these fundamentalists. I’m sure there are some, but it must be very rare. **dangermom** , I don’t have issues with people who provide their children with a good education themselves. But what is worse: when children go to a public school, supported by their parents who extend their education in the afternoons or when children get educated by their parents who only care about their fundamentalist religion, neglecting their science education, indoctrinating them and separating them from society? I think if you got rid of the _Schulpflicht_, you would have far more of the latter than the former. Again, I’m speaking about Germany. And how do you address the latter without affecting the former? ---
**Author:** ![Marienee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Marienee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marienee)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/43 "2010-02-03T17:21:28Z")
Okay, I was going to let this thread pass, because I am fully aware that since the relationship between citizen and government in northern europe is very different than it is in the US, the conversation is almost not worth having. It is impossible to prevent people talking past each other because the same words do not mean the same things. However, this: > [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;12071544’] > > I feel that the same people who engage in scaremongering about Islam taking over Europe are now complaining about a system that is best suited to prevent stuff like that. Seriously, man, I hope I misunderstood you because, well, the notion that scaremongering over the possibility that Islam is taking over Europe originates in the US, or with religious conservatives is, well. It is to laugh. Certainly there are Americans who have bought into it, but that one is purely home grown. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/44 "2010-02-03T17:37:04Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > There are many reasons why parents may want to homeschool. Not all homeschoolers are religious conservatives. > > My sister homeschools her daughter. She’s an atheist and also has a Ph.D. in molecular biology. She homeschools because she thinks the local schools are too conservative and too bureaucratic. Obligatory \*Buffy \*quote: _"Homeschooling…It’s not just for scary_ _religious folks anymore!_" ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/45 "2010-02-03T17:40:44Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/46 "2010-02-03T17:54:01Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > Are you saying that government officials should be allowed to come into your home for no particular reason other than that they are assuming that you’re doing something wrong? I thought privacy laws were against that kind of thing. Usually there has to be some sort of reason to enter a home to inspect it. This supports people’s assumptions that homeschooling is the same thing as child abuse. In the same way that government officials should be allowed to enter public schools for no particular reason other than that they are assuming that the public school is doing something wrong, yes. If you decide to homeschool your child your home is no longer simply a home. It’s also an educational institution. It’s no different\* than if you start running a daycare out of your home - it’s now a institution which the government has a legitimate purpose in regulating, as well as being your home. \*Well, it’s a bit different, but the logical basis is the same. I am generally in favor of homeschooling as a right, but I don’t think much of it in practice. For all the studies showing that homeschooled kids perform better on standardized tests and are more engaged and whatnot, they’re all _weird._ I realize that’s a wholly subjective opinion, but I’ve known dozens of home schooled kids (very popular around here) and none of them were particularly well-adjusted. ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/47 "2010-02-03T17:55:53Z")
> [@Marienee](#): > > Seriously, man, I hope I misunderstood you because, well, the notion that scaremongering over the possibility that Islam is taking over Europe originates in the US, or with religious conservatives is, well. It is to laugh. Certainly there are Americans who have bought into it, but that one is purely home grown. OK, you have a point. The origin is probably here. But I’ve certainly come across that opinion more on these boards than in public discourse in Germany, and it’s much more mainstream there than here (especially in the “Western European civilisation is falling” sense). As far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/48 "2010-02-03T18:50:25Z")
…ducking in for a second… > [@](#): > > For all the studies showing that homeschooled kids perform better on standardized tests and are more engaged and whatnot, they’re all _weird_. And heaven forbid that anyone should be _weird_!!! (As we know, the public schools never produce any weird people.) Our modern society here in the US is certainly just fine, we don’t need anybody _different_ messing things up. Ew. …and away again. No time for big long post. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/49 "2010-02-03T18:58:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If you decide to homeschool your child your home is no longer simply a home. It’s also an educational institution. It’s no different\* than if you start running a daycare out of your home - it’s now a institution which the government has a legitimate purpose in regulating, as well as being your home. There are some serious flaws in your reasoning here. 1. If I help my kids with their homework, or teach them other subjects (language, calculus, etc.) not available at their school, is my home now an educational institution that should be “monitored”? 2. Daycare only applies if it’s other people’s children and I’m being paid. Should government be investigating me if I have my children at my home? Aren’t I now a daycare? No matter that it’s my own kids? 3. Should police be allowed to enter my house because there might be illegal activity occuring? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/50 "2010-02-03T19:25:42Z")
[QUOTE=dangermom] And heaven forbid that anyone should be weird!!! (As we know, the public schools never produce any weird people.) Our modern society here in the US is certainly just fine, we don’t need anybody different messing things up. Ew. [/QUOTE] Public schooling doesn’t _produce_ weird kids; weird kids just happen to be present in the public school system. However, _all_ homeschooled kids are weird, in my experience, which suggests that rather than simply being weird, they have been turned weird. Not that there’s necessarily anything wrong with being weird, of course - I am weird. It’s just… odd. > [@emarkp](#): > > There are some serious flaws in your reasoning here. > > 1. If I help my kids with their homework, or teach them other subjects (language, calculus, etc.) not available at their school, is my home now an educational institution that should be “monitored”? Of course not. You are not supplanting the public school system; you are supplementing it. Homeschooling is the opposite. > [@](#): > > 1. Daycare only applies if it’s other people’s children and I’m being paid. Should government be investigating me if I have my children at my home? Aren’t I now a daycare? No matter that it’s my own kids? Better argument. However, the government is not _investigating_ home schoolers; it is performing occasional regular inspections. > [@](#): > > 1. Should police be allowed to enter my house because there might be illegal activity occuring? Assuming they have probable cause, why not? ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/51 "2010-02-03T19:49:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Of course not. You are not supplanting the public school system; you are supplementing it. Homeschooling is the opposite. It’s not the opposite, it’s the logical extension. If I’m supplementing school to the point that my kid is learning more in every subject than when he’s at school, why is he going to school again? > [@](#): > > However, the government is not _investigating_ home schoolers; it is performing occasional regular inspections. You didn’t answer the question. The government has no right to inspect or investigate my home simply because my children are at home. > [@](#): > > Assuming they have probable cause, why not? But the _a priori_ reason is simply that I’m at home. The “probable cause” in the homeschooling case is that the kids are at home, rather than in a government institution. Should all people who aren’t employees of the government be “inspected” since they’re not present in a government institution? ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/52 "2010-02-03T19:58:48Z")
I think most people agree that it would be nice if Germany had a more lenient approach to homeschooling. But that’s not the point. The point is whether the law is so unreasonable that someone would be forced to flee the country due to a fear of persecution. Why can’t they start their own private school? Move to another city with more people who share their religion? Move to another EU county that allows homeschooling? Are they really more worthy of asylum than the thousands who apply every year who are fleeing war, starvation or genuine persecution? To grant asylum to a family that is fleeing a law that they disagree with in one of the world’s most prosperous countries, is a spit in the face to the real refugees who have been denied asylum. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/53 "2010-02-03T20:03:16Z")
Not only that the law is so unreasonable, but that the government is unreasonable in enforcing it. The key is “reasonable fear”, and I don’t think any reasonable person (or immigration judge for that matter) would find their… whatever… a reasonable fear. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/54 "2010-02-03T20:07:26Z")
> [@Lazz](#): > > Yeah, home-schooling is also legal in belgium and france. It’s legal, but AFAIK you have to provide \*some \*token justification (like medical problems, or lack of proficiency with the language, what have you). “I don’t like what you are teaching” possibly wouldn’t cut it. Besides, aren’t there private Christian schools in Germany the kids could have been sent to ? In my opinion, schooling (be it private or public) is hardly about actual knowledge and education. Most of what you learn in school, you’ll have forgotten by the time you get to vote anyway. School is really about socializing, learning how to deal with difference (or, as the case may be, indifference), learning discipline and how to accept arbitrary, sometimes even unfair rules, getting emotionally scarred for life, that sort of thing. In that sense, I’m leery about home schooling, and I don’t think it’s very healthy. If you want your kids to have better education than the baseline, that’s fine - my family did too (and thus I had the privilege of having English tutors, regular spelling bees, rote drilling of multiplication tables etc…) ; but completely severing them from the shared social experience we all hated at the time 😉 stunts their growth in other, perhaps more important ways. ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/55 "2010-02-03T20:16:49Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s legal, but AFAIK you have to provide \*some \*token justification (like medical problems, or lack of proficiency with the language, what have you). “I don’t like what you are teaching” possibly wouldn’t cut it. Heh, I have several friends who have been homeschooled or who are homeschooling their kids, but I have no idea what justification one has to use, if any. Not a single one did it for religious reasons though. Hum, from this site: [http://web.mac.com/instructionenfamille/Instructionenfamille2008/Procedure.html](http://web.mac.com/instructionenfamille/Instructionenfamille2008/Procedure.html) it seems you only have to say to the inspection académique you’re gonna homeschool your kid/s, don’t need to say why. I wouldn’t have guessed it. ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/56 "2010-02-03T20:18:41Z")
Yes, there are Christian private schools in Germany, and they even are subsidized by the state. The parents could also start their own, if they have the money, and comply with school regulations. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/57 "2010-02-03T20:36:43Z")
> [@Lazz](#): > > Heh, I have several friends who have been homeschooled or who are homeschooling their kids, but I have no idea what justification one has to use, if any. Not a single one did it for religious reasons though. > > Hum, from this site: [http://web.mac.com/instructionenfamille/Instructionenfamille2008/Procedure.html](http://web.mac.com/instructionenfamille/Instructionenfamille2008/Procedure.html) > it seems you only have to say to the inspection académique you’re gonna homeschool your kid/s, don’t need to say why. > I wouldn’t have guessed it. Huh. I stand corrected then. I would have guessed they’d at least check if you even \*knew \*basic maths before agreeing to let your kids learn from you. I guess we’re less bureaucratic than I thought. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/58 "2010-02-03T21:13:33Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > You didn’t answer the question. The government has no right to inspect or investigate my home simply because my children are at home. If they’re going to school, no. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/59 "2010-02-03T21:20:26Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s legal, but AFAIK you have to provide \*some \*token justification (like medical problems, or lack of proficiency with the language, what have you). “I don’t like what you are teaching” possibly wouldn’t cut it. Besides, aren’t there private Christian schools in Germany the kids could have been sent to ? > > In my opinion, schooling (be it private or public) is hardly about actual knowledge and education. Most of what you learn in school, you’ll have forgotten by the time you get to vote anyway. School is really about socializing, learning how to deal with difference (or, as the case may be, indifference), learning discipline and how to accept arbitrary, sometimes even unfair rules, getting emotionally scarred for life, that sort of thing. > > In that sense, I’m leery about home schooling, and I don’t think it’s very healthy. If you want your kids to have better education than the baseline, that’s fine - my family did too (and thus I had the privilege of having English tutors, regular spelling bees, rote drilling of multiplication tables etc…) ; but completely severing them from the shared social experience we all hated at the time 😉 stunts their growth in other, perhaps more important ways. I’m not planning to homeschool my own children, but as I mentioned on this thread, my sister is homeschooling her daughter, so I can tell about the experience our family has with her. As it turns out, socialization has not been a problem at all. There are LOTS of homeschooled children in the area where my sister lives, and they get together all the time. They even take classes together, taught by one of the homeschooling parents. (It’s an affluent area, and there’s always some parent who’s an expert in a topic they want the kids to learn. I mentioned that my sister has a degree in biology.) My niece is very outgoing and makes friends easily. Totally not the stereotypically home schooled child. But the main point my sister would make is: If you hated your time in school, why would you want your child to repeat it if she doesn’t have to? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297/60 "2010-02-03T21:44:59Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > But the main point my sister would make is: If you hated your time in school, why would you want your child to repeat it if she doesn’t have to? I hate my time \*out \*of school just as much. It’s not school that’s cruel, and disappointing, and unfair, and full of evil narrow-minded jerks. It’s life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/granting-asylum-to-people-fleeing-from-germany/527297.md?page=4)