# Gravitists vs Downists **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2000, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758 "2000-10-05T12:59:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2000, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/81 "2000-10-08T20:41:02Z")
Down is Divine Creation from its beginning. Surely, when God created the heavens and the earth, His act of Separation caused the Earth to be Down. For the Lord divided the waters **under** the firmament from the waters **above** the firmament on the first day – Genesis 1:7-9. The word “Down” is used in the KJV 1131 times. Guess how many times the word gravity is used? 2, but not in the right context. I need no other proof of Downness. And therefore, gravity must be the work of the devil. Also, the search for I believe what the “scientists” call the “gravity force exchange boson” will only serve to give the Antichrist a foothold in our World. For, if you take the words “gravity force exhcange boson” and translate them into the original Aramaic, and translate the letters into numbers, and add up the numbers, guess what you get? 333. That is half the number of the beast. And you guessed these theories have each side exchanging one of these newfangled bosons, making 666. This **proves** that gravity is not only the work of Satan, but it is itself an manifestation of the Beast. Repent! ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2000, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/82 "2000-10-08T21:06:04Z")
hey alll im new here but i remememebered that i hear of this guy bwho thinks that you can slow th forces of grabity or evn stop gravitty totally using copper braicelets and magnetizd navelrings. woodn’t that be kewl?\> his name is alex choo and hes got a websiite you should check it out it might we wortha lokk. [Link deleted] [Edited by Alphagene on 10-08-2000 at 04:09 PM] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2000, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/83 "2000-10-08T22:43:06Z")
If the Law of Gravity were actually a natural law, we would see it in nature, wouldn’t we? But what is used as evidence for the Theory of Gravity? Galileo’s dropping balls of different weights of a tower! Do balls of differing weights normally fall off towers? No! So how can this clearly unnatural event be used as evidence of a natural process? The fact that gravitists don’t even see this flaw in their logic shows how wedded they are to their paradigm. ---
**Author:** ![ps\_harold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@ps\_harold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ps_harold)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2000, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/84 "2000-10-08T23:14:48Z")
I would definately not use the Bible as proof of any theory, simply because you can’t mix scientific method with blind faith. If I were to attempt to prove downism, I would bring up examples such as singularities and how gravity no longer works as a theory on a subatomic level. However this does not support downism… rather simply disproves general relativity’s description of gravity. How would one support downism in a scientific manner? One would have to say the ‘down’ is a different direction for every particle/object, because not every object moves strictly one direction. Objects change direction, so there must be forces that alter the object’s ‘down’… then you jump right back into the world of more widely accepted physics. But of course… things DO fall down… I mean… the center of the universe is much more massive then the earth or sun, and the gravity force carrier can travel over seemingly infinite distances, why don’t I fall up? toward the sun of the center of the universe? -ps harold (if anyone doesn’t know the answer to that question and wants to… just ask) ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2000, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/85 "2000-10-08T23:57:18Z")
How do you _know_ that the center of the universe is heavier than the sun or Earth? Have you weighed them, or are you just taking it on **faith**?! ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/86 "2000-10-09T00:00:40Z")
ps\_harold brings up an interesting implication. Since there is no “up” or “down” in outer space, I would like to propose a competing theory. Upism. ---
**Author:** ![ps\_harold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@ps\_harold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ps_harold)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/87 "2000-10-09T00:38:16Z")
Gravity allows us to ‘weigh’ the sun by observing the effects it has on the surrounding masses. There are also other methods of weighing the sun, but I can’t think of them off the top of my head. Gravity lets us hrm… but you don’t believe gravity… The context I was using it in assumed truth in gravity for the sake of arguing (against?) it. Either way this argument won’t change the way I fall down… so why should I care if what I think is down is really up? PS\_harold, gravitist by faith and science as well ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/88 "2000-10-09T00:53:15Z")
Eutychus: Of course there is up and down in outer space! You just don’t believe in Downism, and that’s why you are saying such ridiculous things! Meanwhile, ps\_harold said: > [@](#): > > Gravity allows us to ‘weigh’ the sun by observing the effects it has on the surrounding masses. There are also other methods of weighing the sun, but I can’t think of them off the top of my head. Ha! So you are trying to use your conclusion (gravity) to “prove” your claim. That, my boy, is circular reasoning, and will not be tolerated here! The only way to weigh the sun is with a scale. Don’t try to get around it! > [@](#): > > The context I was using it in assumed truth in gravity for the sake of arguing (against?) it. Sure, like I said. You _assumed_ the truth of gravity. Must be nice. Who knows what you’ll be _assuming_ next! > [@](#): > > Either way this argument won’t change the way I fall down… so why should I care if what I think is down is really up? How do you _know_ it won’t change the way you fall down? I suggest an experiment in which you fall off of increasingly large buildings, checking to make sure that you fall _down_ each time. Report back to me with your findings, and then we’ll talk. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/89 "2000-10-09T01:25:58Z")
\*\*ps\_harold wrote: I would definately not use the Bible as proof of any theory, simply because you can’t mix scientific method with blind faith.\*\* Harold, Harold, Harold, you just don’t understand! You seen, Downism is true, it’s the ultimate Truth! It’s all based on the Holy Book. The Holy Book is the EXACT WORDS of the Divine One. How do I know this to be true? It say so, right here in the Holy Book. You can’t get any plainer than that! The Divine One has spoken and told us, thru the Holy Book, how the world operates. Anything else is the work of the Great Invisible Boogey Man who tests our faith in the Divine One by spreading all these false “theories” about gravity and other nonsense. And if you don’t believe me, go outside and look. It’s very obvious that the world doesn’t move. It’s the center of the Universe and everything else goes around it. How can you deny that!? Do you feel the earth move? No. Do you see the stars and those “planets” move? Yes. Therefore it’s obvious, Downism is the correct way to view the world. It’s all part of the Divine One’s plan. You need to read the many wonderful papers by Jack Chickpea who can explain it in very simply language. And the artwork that he uses to illustrate his points, oh Jack is a very talented man. And all of his papers are bases on the Holy Book, so they **HAVE** to be true. ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/90 "2000-10-09T01:58:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mauve Dog \* > Forgive me for interrupting in a thread where I clearly have no knowledge of the principles involved, but… > > I had read somewhere that flying is simply a special case with respect to gravity (I’ll see if I can find the cite…). Specifically, flying is what happens when you fall and miss the ground. Therefore, flying, to me at least, does not seem to violate the Downist position, _per se_. A flying object is simply a more derived falling object. > > Have I completely misinterpreted this idea? The citation you are looking for is from a questionable author by the name of Douglas Adams, but nonetheless shows that even such heathens needs must concede Downist principles. > [@](#): > > ``` > The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy has this to say on the subject of flying. > There is an art, it says, or rather a knack to flying. > The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. > Pick a nice day, it suggests, and try it. > The first part is easy. > All it requires is simply the ability to throw yourself forward with all your weight, and the willingness not to mind that it's going to hurt. > That is, it's going to hurt if you fail to miss the ground. > Most people fail to miss the ground, and if they are really trying properly, the likelihood is that they will fail to miss it fairly hard. > Clearly, it's the second point, the missing, which presents the difficulties. > One problem is that you have to miss the ground accidentally. It's no good deliberately intending to miss the ground because you won't. You have to have your attention suddenly distracted by something else when you're halfway there, so that you are no longer thinking about falling, or about the ground, or about how much it's going to hurt if you fail to miss it. > It is notoriously difficult to prise your attention away from these three things during the split second you have at your disposal. > Hence most people's failure, and their eventual disillusionment with this exhilarating and spectacular sport. > If, however, you are lucky enough to have your attention momentarily distracted at the crucial moment by, say, a gorgeous pair of legs (tentacles, pseudopodia, according to phyllum and/or personal inclination) or a bomb going off in your vicinity, or by suddenly spotting an extremely rare species of beetle crawling along a nearby twig, then in your astonishment you will miss the ground completely and remain bobbing just a few inches above it in what might seem to be a slightly foolish manner. > This is a moment for superb and delicate concentration. > Bob and float, float and bob. > Ignore all considerations of your own weight and simply let yourself waft higher. > Do not listen to what anybody says to you at this point because they are unlikely to say anything helpful. > They are most likely to say something along the lines of, "Good God, you can't possibly be flying!" > It is vitally important not to believe them or they will suddenly be right. > Waft higher and higher. > Try a few swoops, gentle ones at first, then drift above the treetops breathing regularly. > Do not wave at anybody. > When you have done this a few times you will find the moment of distraction rapidly becomes easier and easier to achieve. > You will then learn all sorts of things about how to control your flight, your speed, your manoeuvrability, and the trick usually lies in not thinking too hard about whatever you want to do, but just allowing it to happen as if it was going to anyway. > You will also learn how to land properly, which is something you will almost certainly cock up, and cock up badly, on your first attempt. > There are private flying clubs you can join which help you achieve the all-important moment of distraction. They hire people with surprising bodies or opinions to leap out from behind bushes and exhibit and/or explain them at the crucial moments. Few genuine hitch-hikers will be able to afford to join these clubs, but some may be able to get temporary employment at them. > > ``` \*note: I wanted to quote the entire **Guide** entry on the subject of flying, but it is rather long. If some moderator feels that it is flirting dangerously with the edges of fair use, feel free to trim it. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/91 "2000-10-09T03:22:39Z")
Many of you seem to have forgotten the one true rule of the universe… the reason we don’t fly off of this flat plate, that extends infinitly in all directions, is the simple fact that **Grhgtrhoshtoeohg** doesn’t want us to. The ancient people worshipped **Grhgtrhoshtoeohg** but that worship was put down by the early Gravitists and Downists. Worship of **Grhgtrhoshtoeohg** continued, but in quiet… now the tenents of the old faith can be open, but we must be careful, as the Downists and the Gravitists would like to start burning us again… And I know that I’m right, cause I read it in a book from a musty old book store, with lots of old books in it, and my mom and grandma were all practicing **Grhgtrhoshtoeohgites** ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/92 "2000-10-09T09:19:07Z")
Much as I think the addition of a poor ol’ naive newbie has been hilarious, in the interests of fightin’ ignorance an’ all that: **harold** - noone here believes in ‘Downism’. There is no such belief as ‘Downism’. This thread has sprung up to satirically parallel the arguments, epigrams, incorrect assumptions and misunderstanding that Creationists and other such animals use. Some of those posting in this thread to support Downism have advanced degrees in physics. They are taking the piss\*. I have no doubt that this post will be followed by the jeers of those who wanted to continue the joke and by the shocked posts of those who can’t believe that _anyone_ would suggest that Downism isn’t true. To these people I can only say, “Gentlemen - I salute you”. Please return to your exciting cross-exhange of ideas. But my guilt-o-meter was beginning to twinge. pan \*To use a phrase that 98% of Americans won’t know. It means that they are pulling your leg. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/93 "2000-10-09T17:46:56Z")
kabbes said: > [@](#): > > harold - noone here believes in ‘Downism’. There is no such belief as ‘Downism’. Heretic! People have been burned at the stake for suggesting less than this. You’re just lucky we live in a time when that isn’t allowed anymore – though I wish the government were more enlightened about it and just let us do our necessary work! > [@](#): > > I have no doubt that this post will be followed by the jeers of those who wanted to continue the joke and by the shocked posts of those who can’t believe that anyone would suggest that Downism isn’t true. This is no joke, man! But that was a nice try – acting like any objections to your message were less than serious, and thus trying to get away with your claims. Did you really think we’d let you off so easily? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/94 "2000-10-09T17:51:11Z")
Kabbes, I think ps\_harold HAS caught on. He posted ‘I would definitely not use the Bible as proof of any theory, simply because you can’t mix scientific method with blind faith.’ Sounds sound to me. Am I right, ps\_harold? And to keep the thread going (I loved Guy Stuff 😃 ): ‘Some of those posting in this thread to support Downism have advanced degrees in physics.’ Are you taking qualifications over evidence? ☹ I see hot-air balloons \* moving sideways in the air. This is why I’m a Lateralist. Even though I don’t have a physics qualification… - as someone said earlier, who’d use a cold-air balloon? ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/95 "2000-10-09T18:23:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\* > Too many Gravitists haven taken this lightly. Now our children are being threatened with ignorance as one state after another considers bill requiring that Scientific Downism be taught in the schools. This charade must stop. Stand up to Downism! \*\* _Beware the Antigrav, for although he appeareth normal and weighted as of a man, verily doth he float and spread lies, innuendo and bad things! Lo, worship not the false idol of Uppityness, for that which risith must also cometh down. Forsooth."_ Limbaugh 2:25 It’s all there in scripture, ya just gotta read. ---
**Author:** ![ps\_harold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@ps\_harold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ps_harold)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2000, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/96 "2000-10-09T18:46:24Z")
Holy crap, there is NO downism? I refuse to believe it… if i believe that I will surely end up falling into the center of the galaxy, and surely that would be bad. I also think any satire of this nature is incomplete unless you include an argument with someone who is a non-believer and how his arguments are responded to 🙂 ps\_harold, converted gravitist (of course i knew this post was a joke after the first reply to it, however the manner in which the posts were so convincingly stated and so close to how extreme creationist might attmept to prove a theory such as ‘downism’ made me wonder if I was simply in a room full of idiots who knew how to write… I was leaning towards the other explaination though) ---
**Author:** ![Palm\_Cove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Palm\_Cove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palm_Cove)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2000, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/97 "2000-10-10T01:12:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ps\_harold \* > \*\* > (of course i knew this post was a joke after the first reply > \*\* Although I am convinced by the constantly evolving gravatist theory, in fact some have called me a "fundamentalist gravatist, You should not take downism or its followers as a joke. You will at least draw the ire of David B, who although IMHO is misguided on this, issue is no fool. In order to fight ignorance it is not sufficient to be simply dismissive and hope downism just become eztinct. Downist power structures have been arround for many generations and their leaders do not wish to loose the power they have over their congregations, even when their claims are shown as bogus. If they loose their flock, they loose their income stream. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2000, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/98 "2000-10-10T09:30:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ps\_harold \* > \*\*Holy crap, there is NO downism? I refuse to believe it… if i believe that I will surely end up falling into the center of the galaxy, and surely that would be bad. > \*\* _sigh_ The earth **is** the center of the galaxy. You can’t fall into the center of the galaxy, if you are already standing on its surface. The Supreme Being created the heavens **above** , and the earth **below**. This is the core tenet of Downism. At least Fundamentalist Downism, of which I am a subscriber. Those who accept that the Great One descended into death for the Downness of all who will come after him will be guaranteed a place in heaven above. But the Great One descended for the Downness of all humanity, even for those who do not accept him, is the reason you don’t go floating off into space. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2000, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/99 "2000-10-10T13:39:58Z")
Downism has caught on so well, I’m inclined to think I should patent it or copyright it or trademark it or register it, or whatever one does with a new concept. Maybe I can quit my day job and go on TV as a televangelist? Would thousands of lonely people send me money, to support Downism? But, I have to say, that replacing (ahem) gravity with levity has always been one of my fundamental wossnames. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2000, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758/100 "2000-10-10T22:12:10Z")
CKDextHavn, de Bono made money out of Lateral thinking… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gravitists-vs-downists/35758.md?page=6)