# Gray Davis Recall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683 "2003-07-24T18:37:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/1 "2003-07-24T18:37:33Z")
Well the recall is officially on. Certainly, with the size of California this is an issue that will affect the whole country. I do not like Gray Davis. I think he has handled the state extremely poorly (although he is hardly solely to blame), the budget, the electricity crisis. He seemingly lied during the previous campaign about the budget. Having said that, I will not vote to recall him. Davis is the democratically elected Governor of the State of California. I do not oppose the right of the people to recall, however, I do believe that a recall is such a big stick that it should be used in the most judicious manner. Bad governing, in my opinion is not an appropriate reason to recall somone. Criminal and/or extremely unethical and even immoral behavior would be criteria I would apply. Once the recall genie is out of the bottle it seems that the democratic process will become reduced considerably in importance and politicians will become stymied to act for fear of recall reprisals. The main problem is that it takes such a small percentage of the voting population to force a recall, and even if someone is not truly threatend to be recalled, they would have to spend time and energy fighting it. (Plus it will cost the state I don’t know how much money to run a recall election). I would propose that a recall would require far more signatures. Politically California often leads the way, for better or worse, andear that if this recall works in California it might spread to other states. And while some think it is democracy in it’s purest form, giving control back to the people, I see it the other way. Gray Davis won the election, and now that result may be negated by the recall, I just don’t like the smell of that. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/2 "2003-07-24T18:55:21Z")
Well said, Gangster. Maybe I’ve missed something in this whole recall story, but aren’t the bulk of the complaints about Davis for things he did/didn’t do _before_ he was re-elected? This makes no sense to me; I see no justification for a recall. The guy was duly elected; this just seems like sour grapes to me. We had the chance to vote him out, and didn’t do so. I’m no big Davis fan either, but this recall is just b.s. ---
**Author:** ![hilltopper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@hilltopper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hilltopper)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/3 "2003-07-24T19:16:43Z")
If we had known about the budget debacle, would we have really voted in Bill Simon? I for one would not have. I guess thats what this process is all about, but it seem like a waste of money and time to me. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/4 "2003-07-24T22:39:00Z")
The interesting aspect of the recall is that it is not clear that there is anything under the California constitution that certifies the election accompanying the recall vote as binding. From what I have heard, the Lt. Governor can simply take over, as he would when the position of Governor is vacated under any other circumstance. Does anybody have any solid information on this? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/5 "2003-07-24T23:37:16Z")
Never mind, I found it myself: [Calif. Constitution Raises Questions About Davis Replacement](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92615,00.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*According to the state Constitution, once the recall qualifies, the lieutenant governor calls for a replacement election, and “if appropriate,” a vote to elect a successor. Some say that gives Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante wiggle room to decide that if Davis is ousted, a replacement vote is not appropriate and he could keep the job for himself. > > “Why should it be any different if the governor is recalled than if the governor were to become president or were to become ill or for some other reason couldn’t serve?” said political consultant Susan Estrich.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/6 "2003-07-24T23:40:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > Well said, Gangster. Maybe I’ve missed something in this whole recall story, but aren’t the bulk of the complaints about Davis for things he did/didn’t do _before_ he was re-elected? I think most of the complaints against Davis are for things he had no influence over, like California getting gouged by the energy companies and the crummy national economy as a whole. I’m still scratching my head trying to think of something Davis _himself_ did to warrant a recall. > [@](#): > > I see no justification for a recall. The guy was duly elected; this just seems like sour grapes to me. We had the chance to vote him out, and didn’t do so. I’m no big Davis fan either, but this recall is just b.s. All of the above. I probably would have voted for Riordan over Davis if Riordan had ran in the last election, but he didn’t, and Davis \>\> Simon any day of the week. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/7 "2003-07-25T01:48:48Z")
I pretty much agree with Gangster in the OP. I never liked Davis, but a lot of this recall business appears to be sour grapes. On the other hand, if he does get recalled, that might serve as a powerful warning to future governors: Don’t screw up the budget! All in all, though, I’d be perfectly happy waiting until '06 to vote Davis out of office. Perhaps an even more intersting aspect is that we now will be voting on the “no racial data collected by the gov’t” initiative during the recall election, instead of the next general election. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/8 "2003-07-25T02:39:32Z")
This makes no damn sense. Its crazy even by Tighty Righty standards. Why in the world go to all this trouble to replace a perfectly good scapegoat, and replace him with a _Republican_ scapegoat? California is in such a mess, God Almighty couldn’t step in an fix it. Left alone, in a year, Grey Davis looks like a stupid jerk, removed, in a year, an as yet-unspecified Republican is going to look like a stupid jerk. Nobody, but _nobody_ is going to fix California’s troubles by next Election Day. So they go to the polls totally pissed at the Republicans, who put them through all this shit and still didn’t fix the problems. Brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/9 "2003-07-25T15:37:15Z")
I’m a little confused–y’all have a Lieutenant Governor, Cruz Bustamante, another Dem. Now, I know traditionally the Looeygov is pretty useless, but isn’t the one thing he or she is supposed to be ready to do is replace the Governor if he’s gone? Obviously I’m missing something basic, because if Bustamantes’s the one the Repubs wouldn’t be trying all this. BTW, I feel sorry for CA Repubs who do NOT support the recall. Many’s the time I’ve had to grit my teeth at the follies of my fellow Dems in MA and NY. Sorry, folks. ---
**Author:** ![hilltopper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@hilltopper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hilltopper)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/10 "2003-07-25T15:49:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*All in all, though, I’d be perfectly happy waiting until '06 to vote Davis out of office. > . \*\* Actually in CA there are term limits and Davis will automatically be out at the end of this term. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/11 "2003-07-25T15:55:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*This makes no damn sense. Its crazy even by Tighty Righty standards. Why in the world go to all this trouble to replace a perfectly good scapegoat, and replace him with a _Republican_ scapegoat? California is in such a mess, God Almighty couldn’t step in an fix it. Left alone, in a year, Grey Davis looks like a stupid jerk, removed, in a year, an as yet-unspecified Republican is going to look like a stupid jerk. > > Nobody, but _nobody_ is going to fix California’s troubles by next Election Day. So they go to the polls totally pissed at the Republicans, who put them through all this shit and still didn’t fix the problems. > > Brilliant. \*\* Not sure if you’re aware of this, but the next CA election wouldn’t be until '06, not '04 as you seem to imply in your post. Not that it would make much difference in terms of fixing the mess this state is in. But I do like the idea of Arnold in Sac. I doubt he’d be wishy washy about anything. Of course Maria’s not too keen about moving from Malibu to Sac-- I wonder why…? ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/12 "2003-07-25T16:12:22Z")
I have to confess that I don’t understand this move either. Even if the Pubs do get one of their own in, won’t it simply mean that the next duly elected governor is just as vulnerable to the same tactics? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/13 "2003-07-25T16:25:27Z")
I’m not sure I understand how this is strategicall good for the Pubs, either. I think a despised Dem as the CA Governor during the '04 presidential election would be a good thing, politically. This whole thing was pretty much the brainchild of Issa, though, so I’m guessing that the back-room Pubs weren’t all that keen on it and are just jumping on the bandwagon now that it’s a _fait accompli_. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/14 "2003-07-25T16:30:04Z")
I wonder if it’s a “loss leader” type of gambit. Y’know, you wrest the governorship from the Dems and put a Pubbie in the mansion, that raises the cachet of Republican candidates for state legislative seats and US Congress? ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/15 "2003-07-25T17:45:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gangster Octopus \* > \*\*I do not like Gray Davis. I think he has handled the state extremely poorly (although he is hardly solely to blame), the budget, the electricity crisis. He seemingly lied during the previous campaign about the budget. > > Having said that, I will not vote to recall him. Davis is the democratically elected Governor of the State of California. I do not oppose the right of the people to recall, however, I do believe that a recall is such a big stick that it should be used in the most judicious manner. Bad governing, in my opinion is not an appropriate reason to recall somone. Criminal and/or extremely unethical and even immoral behavior would be criteria I would apply. \*\* Excuse me? If bad governing of one of the largest states in the union isnt considered criminal or unethical, I really have no Idea what would be. What was Grey Davis’s tactic to smear Bill Simon? That he (Simon) _ **used to** _ work for a company that went bankrupt on its own **AFTER** he left it. If that disqualifies him for being governor, then it think it is wholly appropriate that we be given a chance to disqualify Davis for mucking up the state budget. The California constution does not specify the ctriteria needed for a recall. As such, putting this recall on the ballot is justifiable based on the number of people that signed to qualify it. I think this is a better way to find the next governor. with just 70 some odd says before the election, there wont be time for smear campaigns and spin control. Anyone doing that doesnt get my vote. They now have less than 2 and half months to convince me who will replace Grey Davis, and the best way to do that is to speak to the issues that are important to us californians. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/16 "2003-07-25T18:08:47Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\* If that disqualifies him for being governor, then it think it is wholly appropriate that we be given a chance to disqualify Davis for mucking up the state budget._\* OK, but you are setting a dangerous precedent for all succeeding governors in California. Every time a Republican is elected, expect the Democrats to gather petitions for a recall, and the state will be put to great expense and disruption conducting them. You are opening up a Pandora’s Box; if you don’t like the way the governor conducts state business, vote against him in the next election. Recall should be reserved for indictable offenses only. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/17 "2003-07-25T18:17:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*Excuse me? If bad governing of one of the largest states in the union isnt considered criminal or unethical, I really have no Idea what would be. It isn’t, unless the governing is done criminally or unethically. Stupidity or simply making bad decision is not unethical nor is it criminal. > [@](#): > > **The California constution does not specify the ctriteria needed for a recall. As such, putting this recall on the ballot is justifiable based on the number of people that signed to qualify it.** I never said that legally there was anything wrong with the recall, it is clearly legal and Constitutional. And even though the Costitution doesn’t give a reason, I am certainly well within my rights to apply whatever criteria I deem important. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/18 "2003-07-25T18:21:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sofa King \* > I have to confess that I don’t understand this move either. Even if the Pubs do get one of their own in, won’t it simply mean that the next duly elected governor is just as vulnerable to the same tactics? I’m sure, if Darry Issa were to win the recall and get the governorship, that he’ll gleefully blame all the ills of his first three years in office on Grey Davis. Heck, it worked for Bush. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE)_ > If bad governing of one of the largest states in the union isnt considered criminal or unethical, I really have no Idea what would be. Off the top of my head, how about bribery, kickbacks, rigging an election, murder, pedophilia, and lying to start a war would rake worse IMO. Saying Davis should be recalled _just_ because California’s in an economic mess doesn’t qualify; after all, it’s not like we’re the _only_ state that’s currently struggling. Last I heard, 34 states in the union are facing budget problems and slashing programs all over the place – do you seriously believe that the citizens of those states should all rise up and overthrow their governors as well? > [@](#): > > What was Grey Davis’s tactic to smear Bill Simon? That he (Simon) used to work for a company that went bankrupt on its own AFTER he left it. Eh, Simon didn’t need any smearing from Davis to lose the election; the guy was a grade-A flakeola anyway. > [@](#): > > with just 70 some odd says before the election, there wont be time for smear campaigns and spin control. Anyone doing that doesnt get my vote. Dunno where you are, **X~Slayer,** but the radio stations down here in El Lay have already been airing “Grey Davis is a lying scumbag/Darryl Issa for Governor” smear commercials since early last week. > [@](#): > > They now have less than 2 and half months to convince me who will replace Grey Davis, and the best way to do that is to speak to the issues that are important to us californians. You must be new here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/19 "2003-07-25T18:22:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > Excuse me? If bad governing of one of the largest states in the union isnt considered criminal or unethical, I really have no Idea what would be. You really have not idea what the difference is? Are you kidding? criminal or unethical conduct would be things like bribery, extortion, graft, etc. - in other words, things that go beyond just “bad governing”. > [@](#): > > What was Grey Davis’s tactic to smear Bill Simon? That he (Simon) _ **used to** _ work for a company that went bankrupt on its own **AFTER** he left it. If that disqualifies him for being governor, then it think it is wholly appropriate that we be given a chance to disqualify Davis for mucking up the state budget. Please explain how Simon was “disqualified” from being governor. He wasn’t disqualified, he simply didn’t get enough votes in the primaries. > [@](#): > > The California constution does not specify the ctriteria needed for a recall. As such, putting this recall on the ballot is justifiable based on the number of people that signed to qualify it. Nobody is disputing that it’s _legal_. We’re just saying it’s ridiculous to use a recall vote to oust a duly-elected governor, based on his job performance _before_ he was re-elected. The original purpose for allowing recall votes was to get rid of elected officials who have done something illegal or unethical, _not_ to simply say “We don’t like this guy who won the election, so let’s just keep having new elections until we get rid of him.” I mean, for crying out loud, if people didn’t want him, why the hell did they _vote_ for him? ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683/20 "2003-07-25T18:22:40Z")
This pandoras box has a heavy lock on it. Everyone seems to be under the delusion all it takes to get the needed signitures to qualify for a recall is 2 million dollars. We californians are not stupid. We may be flakes, nuts and loons but we are definitely not stupid. The reason this reacll happened is that a governor narrowly got his ass elected by smearing his opponent and misinforming the voting public about his ability to govern this state and control the budget. The narrow margin by which he won gave him tentative approval which he squandered by immediately by his budget proposals. This recall shows that his narrow margin could not protect him from this historical event. Any other governor in california history couldve prevented this recall, and this is by no means any guarantee that Davis would be ousted. This recall is merely a recount called by the people of California as allowed by our state constitution. The only difference between us and Florida is that our only hanging chad is Grey Davis. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gray-davis-recall/190683.md?page=2)