# Great acting as antagonists in films who are not really bad/evil but just serious a\*\*holes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [September 2, 2025, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682 "2025-09-02T17:12:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dropo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Dropo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dropo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2025, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/81 "2025-09-03T19:33:58Z")
In many samurai films, it’s virtually impossible to know - and generally irrelevant - who is good or evil. _The Sword of Doom_ (1965) features Tatsuya Nakadai in one of his greatest roles as Ryunosuke, a sociopathic master swordsman who joins a political faction (carrying out assassinations of rivals) and ends up slaughtering them. Good guy? Bad guy? Definitely way out of his mind. When it comes to playing insane a-holes, Nakadai has few peers, imo. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2025, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/82 "2025-09-03T19:45:50Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Archibald Cunnigham (Tim Roth) in **Rob Roy** may be the best villain I have ever seen, but I’d argue he wasn’t evil. I mean, he literally raped McGregor’s wife. That makes him evil in my book. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2025, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/83 "2025-09-03T19:50:25Z")
> [@f.coli](#): > > That’s correct. Venkman’s (Bill Murray) confirmation of that is the funniest scene in the movie. It’s the type of cultural touchstone that I feel in my bones, the kind that can only root itself in the fertile soils of a preteen with a PG-13 joke on VHS. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2025, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/84 "2025-09-03T20:03:34Z")
That movie is damn near perfect. And Venkman was one of my earliest crushes. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2025, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/85 "2025-09-03T20:11:15Z")
Dean Vernon Wormer. He just wants the embarrassment that is Delta House off his campus. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2025, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/86 "2025-09-03T20:25:39Z")
Probably didn’t help that Otter “took a few liberties” with the dean’s wife. ---
**Author:** ![iamatractorboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iamatractorboy/32/21261_2.png) [@iamatractorboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamatractorboy)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2025, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/87 "2025-09-03T20:48:08Z")
Danny Witwer (Colin Farrell) in _Minority Report_ comes across as a bit of a dick/jobsworth but gets more sympathetic as the film progresses. He’s an antagonist to John Anderton (Tom Cruise), at least for a while, but is actually one of the good guys. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2025, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/88 "2025-09-03T21:46:59Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > That movie is damn near perfect. And Venkman was one of my earliest crushes. Venkman is kind of a jerk, too. He’s electrocuting one of his test subjects at the beginning. He’s rude to Janine, and fawns all over Dana. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2025, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/89 "2025-09-03T21:59:54Z")
Continuing the trend for academic administrators, in _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ Season 3, the Mayor (Harry Groener) is evil, **Principal Snyder** (Armin Shimerman) is just a weaselly asshole. > _Principal Snyder:_ I mean, it’s incredible. One day the campus is completely bare, empty. The next, there are children everywhere… Like locusts, crawling around, mindlessly bent on feeding and mating, destroying everything in sight in their relentless, pointless desire to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2025, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/90 "2025-09-03T22:04:04Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Venkman is kind of a jerk, too. He’s electrocuting one of his test subjects at the beginning. He’s rude to Janine, and fawns all over Dana. Yeah, I missed all that subtext when I was six. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2025, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/91 "2025-09-03T23:19:32Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > [The character](https://youtu.be/APyWMmwfHKg?si=KP4TYDoh5HWlSsHx) is pretty much an asshole from the first scene whose only real interest is “getting the jump on everybody”, but then, everybody in that movie is kind of an asshole except for Argyle, Holly, and Sgt. Al Powell. [Especially Ellis.](https://youtu.be/irTozIjeqFM?si=CDmn5LZM_ZQso2i9) You know, I’ll go to the bat for Ellis. Sure, he was a coked-up idiot, but he meant well, and all he wanted was for the situation to end without anyone else dying. Most importantly, he knew about McLane’s and Holly’s relationship, and covered for them anyway. His 120 bpm heart was in the right place. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2025, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/92 "2025-09-04T00:27:46Z")
> [@peccavi](#): > > > Like locusts, crawling around, mindlessly bent on feeding and mating, destroying everything in sight in their relentless, pointless desire to exist. That is possibly the finest summation of humanity I have ever read. Whoever wrote that screenplay was a friggin’ genius. Thank you for bringing awareness of that into my world. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2025, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/93 "2025-09-04T01:29:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You know, I’ll go to the bat for Ellis. Sure, he was a coked-up idiot, but he meant well, and all he wanted was for the situation to end without anyone else dying. Most importantly, he knew about McLane’s and Holly’s relationship, and covered for them anyway. Remember, he started out the film trying to seduce Holly: > _HOLLY: Harry, it’s Christmas Eve. Families, stockings? Chestnuts? Rudolf and Frosty? Any of these things ring a bell?_ > > _ELLIS: Actually I was thinking more mulled wine, a nice aged brie, roaring fireplace, you know what I’m saying?_ He’s basically the Bill Paxton character from _True Lies_: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/SUHWyZCrFto/maxresdefault.jpg "TRUE LIES Clip - "Cuz it's You!" (1994) Bill Paxton") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUHWyZCrFto) Now there’s a real asshole. Man, I miss Bill Paxton. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2025, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/94 "2025-09-04T01:34:26Z")
Well, I hate to be the asshole that just picks others’ choices apart, but…..Patrick McGoohan in both _Braveheart_ and _Silver Streak_ was an evil killer. In the book, at least, the mayor of Amityville was in bed with organized crime and tried to keep the beaches open for their benefit. I will submit Bill Paxton as Master Sargent Farel in _Edge of Tomorrow_. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2025, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/95 "2025-09-04T01:50:00Z")
Carl Weathers as Apollo Creed in _Rocky_. When I watched it a few years back, I marveled that Creed really wasn’t a classic bad guy. He didn’t lie, cheat, or attempt to steal anything from Rocky or anyone else. But Creed was arrogant, dismissive, manipulative, and patronizing towards Rocky, no doubt expecting their bout to be little more than an exhibition match that would end in an easy victory rather than a legitimate shot at his title. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2025, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/96 "2025-09-04T05:22:06Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Remember, he started out the film trying to seduce Holly: THEY WERE ON A BREAK! ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2025, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/97 "2025-09-04T06:28:08Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > In the book, at least, the mayor of _Amityville_ was in bed with organized crime and tried to keep the beaches open for their benefit. Sorry, that would be Amity in Jaws. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2025, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/98 "2025-09-04T12:38:48Z")
Amity means friendship ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2025, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/99 "2025-09-04T12:58:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > THEY WERE ON A BREAK! Even if that were true, Ellis was engaging in borderline workplace sexual harassment by not accepting Holly clearly declining his offer and following her around the office continuing to badger her. There is a reason the audience doesn’t feel too bad for him when he gets himself killed. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2025, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/100 "2025-09-04T13:22:01Z")
Yeah, because he refers to Hans as buby. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682.md?page=6)