# Great acting as antagonists in films who are not really bad/evil but just serious a\*\*holes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [September 2, 2025, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682 "2025-09-02T17:12:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2025, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/121 "2025-09-04T21:48:16Z")
In the same Universe, Charles McGill is an asshole (and ultimately right about Jimmy), but he isn’t evil by any stretch. (Notwithstanding ones opinions re: lawyers.) ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2025, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/122 "2025-09-04T22:34:20Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > In the same Universe, Charles McGill is an asshole (and ultimately right about Jimmy), but he isn’t evil by any stretch. The only characters in _Better Call Saul_ who are actually evil (at least, in the sense of wanting to harm people for no good reason) are the Salamancas and Don Eladio and his capos. Many people are greedy, Gus Fring is just trying run his business (which, admittedly is taking advantage of peoples’ addiction to his product but treats his employees graciously), Mike is just trying to make amends for “breaking my boy” by ensuring his daughter-in-law and granddaughter are taken care of, Nacho Varga has been roped into his role with regret, and of course Jimmy and Kim are needlessly malicious in getting their revenge on Howard and cheating other people for fun, but none of them are irredeemably evil. You could perhaps make the case that the Kettlemans were a kind of banal evil, not only in their greed but their (inept) attempts to gaslight people but I think they were really just narcissistically entitled, basically every lawyer’s nightmare client. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/123 "2025-09-05T00:17:53Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > If anything he seems to be the normal guy surrounded by asshole.. How many assholes we got on this ship anyhow? ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/124 "2025-09-05T01:05:00Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Kiefer Sutherland in _Stand By Me_ I was just thinking he plays basically the same–but definitely evil–character in The Lost Boys. (Not to mention he antagonizes Corey Feldman in both films!) ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/125 "2025-09-05T01:48:29Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I was going to mention Dean Wormer. He’s an asshole but he’s right to kick out those disruptive dicks and shut down Delta. I’m on the fence about Dean Wormer. Yes, he’s an asshole out to spoil the Deltas’ fun. But he’s not such a bad guy that he won’t give them another chance—remember, he put them on probation, and then later, on double secret probation. And in the end, it was the Deltas’ grades (or lack of them) that got them tossed, not any of their pranks or partying. I’ve always thought that Dean Wormer just wanted the campus to go back to normal for college campuses in those days: fairly quiet and boring, except for things like organized sports and pep rallies. A few harmless pranks or fads (e.g. phone booth stuffing) would be fine, but he has to put up with wild alcohol-fueled parties, Deltas peeing in their front yard, fizzies in the swim meet, exploding toilets, and trees full of underwear, all because of the Deltas. Wormer may not actually have been an asshole, if the Deltas weren’t there, but his patience must have been stretched thin by them, and given what he had to put up with from them, it’s no wonder he acted like one. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/126 "2025-09-05T05:04:50Z")
I’ve been going back and forth on Fredo Corleone. Sure, he’s bad/evil (he betrays Michael). But somehow he seems more like just an asshole. Maybe because John Cazale did such a good job of portraying him as weak and marginal? ---
**Author:** ![iamatractorboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iamatractorboy/32/21261_2.png) [@iamatractorboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamatractorboy)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/127 "2025-09-05T06:19:54Z")
I’m not sure about Gus. He had no problem with kids working for him and didn’t seem bothered that one was killed (this is in _BB_, not _BCS_). If memory serves it was only because Walter insisted he didn’t use kids that he actually stopped. And then there’s what happened to Victor… Actually my memory might be failing me about a kid dying. Can’t remember. But I still think he’s evil. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/128 "2025-09-05T06:22:34Z")
Fredo is just passed over because he’s dimwitted; of course he’s resentful. Michael Corleone is actively malevolent. He starts out just protecting his father and family, but as Tom Hagen questions him (about attacking everyone) and Kay expresses to him, he’s become evil to the extent of exploiting innocent people for his own gain. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/129 "2025-09-05T07:40:16Z")
Of course Gus is evil, and so is Mike. They profit handsomely off the misery of meth addiction and kill anyone who gets in their way. Is there even a doubt? I know they have some kind of criminal ‘code of honor’ but come on. Plus there’s all that stuff Gus did for Pinochet. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/130 "2025-09-05T09:10:39Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And here’s the important question: was Jellico wrong in anything he demanded? Changing the shifts. It’s a big change for no good reason. It would probably require extra personnel to be assigned to the Enterprise. It would upset everyone’s sleep patterns. It would take a couple of days to plan and implement, but he says get it done next shift. It would cause a big disruption at the worst possible time. Big mismanagement mistake, combined with refusal to listen to his first officer. > [@Spoons](#): > > I’m on the fence about Dean Wormer. Yes, he’s an asshole out to spoil the Deltas’ fun. But he’s not such a bad guy that he won’t give them another chance Doesn’t he celebrate the idea that they are likely to be drafted and sent to Viet Nam? * * * The coyote in Road Runner. He’s not evil, he’s starving and desperate. Ralph Wolf, a separate character played by the same actor, is just doing his job (Unlike Wile E. Coyote from Bugs Bunny, who is evil.) ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/131 "2025-09-05T09:48:04Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Doesn’t he celebrate the idea that they are likely to be drafted and sent to Viet Nam? [Regarding Dean Wormer in _Animal House_.] Yes, he does, but that’s because they all flunked out. There was no longer a reason for them to stay. Given their poor to nonexistent midterm grades, they couldn’t continue at Faber. So they lost their college deferment, and were eligible for the draft. And Wormer is happy about that—maybe he couldn’t nail them with solid evidence that they made toilets explode or dumped fizzies in the swim meet (sound like the SDMB requiring cites?), but on provable failing/failed grades, he could kick them out of school. And he did. I knew enough people who flunked out of both universities that I attended. They did nothing like the Deltas, except to fail to maintain grades. And as a result, like the Deltas who could not maintain grades, they were shown the door. Really, Wormer was just using provable failing grades as the reason he could finally get rid of the Deltas, when he couldn’t prove anything before. I’m unsure if that makes Wormer bad, evil, or an asshole (well, okay, I’ll grant asshole), but he was really just doing his job. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/132 "2025-09-05T10:01:07Z")
Flunking them out is just doing his job. Celebrating them put into danger of death is bad. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/133 "2025-09-05T11:16:08Z")
I think his line “Oh by the way, I’ve notified your draft boards, and told then you are all _eligible_ for military service” is one of the best gloats in cinematic history. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/134 "2025-09-05T12:53:05Z")
Not to mention the way he butchers the Spanish language… (The actor doesn’t speak Spanish and it shows, paradoxically Chileans are known for being nigh unintelligible to speakers of other dialects, but not in that way) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/135 "2025-09-05T13:02:08Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > I think his line “Oh by the way, I’ve notified your draft boards, and told then you are all _eligible_ for military service” is one of the best gloats in cinematic history. Yes he’s an asshole but not evil. All the Deltas had to do was go to class and study a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/136 "2025-09-05T15:16:36Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Yes he’s an asshole but not evil. All the Deltas had to do was go to class and study a little bit. In addition to the general Delt disruptive hijinks on campus, Wormer is personally affected when Boon slices a golf ball through the dean’s office window, breaking a glass of water all over the papers on his desk (IIRC), which is relatively minor, but then later Otter bangs his wife at the toga party. John Vernon also played a grey character in _The Outlaw Josey Wales_. He turns in Josey’s band of rebels who are then killed, spends most of the movie helping to hunt him down, but then lets Josey go at the end. ETA: I know Vernon’s character didn’t know his men would be killed and he’s thereby forced into hunting Wales. ---
**Author:** ![TheTyrant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thetyrant/32/19111_2.png) [@TheTyrant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheTyrant)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/137 "2025-09-05T15:23:04Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Jellico is made a hated character from the Enterprise crew’s reaction to him, not anything he did. They’re a bunch of titty babies “aaawww this isn’t the way Captain Picard does it. whaaa!” As someone who has been on a lot of submarines, a change in commanding officer can definitely be an abrupt shift–and a change in command culture is hard for a lot of people to stomach. Especially in a place like a submarine (or in space) where the command climate is pretty much _all you know_ and the only thing that influences your day-to-day life. Jellico just ran things differently. Gotta say, I respect the guy for being up-front with people and saying “hey I don’t like you but I need you to do your job.” I’ve known captains who were glad-handing weasels and wouldn’t tell you what they really thought. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/138 "2025-09-05T15:41:08Z")
Mark Margolis (Hector Salamanca) takes the cake when it comes to butchering Spanish on BB. I remember seeing some Chileans being interviewed when BB was still airing. They agreed that his accent was stilted, but not terrible. For them, the most surprising thing was his ethnicity. There aren’t a lot of Afro-Chileans, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/139 "2025-09-05T17:43:39Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > A few harmless pranks or fads (e.g. phone booth stuffing) would be fine, but he has to put up with wild alcohol-fueled parties, Deltas peeing in their front yard, fizzies in the swim meet, exploding toilets, and trees full of underwear, all because of the Deltas. The dead horse in his office doesn’t count? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682/140 "2025-09-05T17:52:03Z")
You’re talking about Gus, not Hector I believe? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/great-acting-as-antagonists-in-films-who-are-not-really-bad-evil-but-just-serious-a-holes/1022682.md?page=8)